Pre-count snap
 

Before completing the pre-snap count a TO is called. Low and behold team B has 12 players on the field. Do you throw the flag for illegal substitution or ignore and tell the coach to count players?

I grant the timeout. Nothing more.

If they call time before or as I get to 12, I have nothing. If they call time out after I get to 12 (three times), I will have a penalty. They shouldn't be able to buy their way out of this penalty by burning a timeout.

I'm not flagging B for illegal substitution unless the snap is imminent.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

It is not a foul to have more than 12 on the field during a dead ball period. Having more than 12 becomes a 10-yard Illegal Substitution foul when a legal snap has taken place.

This is true for team B. If you blow it dead as soon as you have 12 for the defense, you will get downgraded if you were being evaluated. They can run a guy off late, and even if he is running off as they snap it, you have a LB illegal substitution foul.

While working a JV game on Monday afternoon I hear one of the coaches on my sideline yelling to his players on the field and asking them if they have 12. I turn to him and say, "This isn't Canada, coach."

A story from one of our vets:

They throw a flag for too many men. R penalizes 10 yards, repeat the down.

So coach sees a kid on the field who shouldn't be there. Kid comes off, next play. . . .

Flag again for too many men. Coaches goes bonkers. "I took a guy off."

"That's fine coach. But before you had 14 on the field."

In the 1980s I saw the Bronx Crusaders -- Mid-East Football Conference (adults) -- get away snapping as team A with 12 for one down; they'd subbed in one more than came out. Next down subbed in 1, took out 2. Doesn't it work like quantum uncertainty?

Robert

Will I get in trouble if I say I'm uncertain :)

Last season in a playoff game I detected A had 12 players at the same time as the coach, he quickly called timeout seeing I was ready to toss the flag.

Later my LJ caught 12 and we banged them.

My philosophy is complete your count as soon as possible. If you have twelve and no one is moving off or the player who came on stayed, you flag it.

Just a question, but exactly who is doing all this "downgrading"? Is there some kind of "Downgrading Guide" that stipulates what every observer of a game should be looking for?

I suspect observing is a lot more organized and structured at the collegiate level, but at the High School level I would suspect observing varies considerably from area to area.

Here in Indiana it's soley the coaches and it's just a one-time vote they do annually for every crew in the state. They can vote for crews that have worked their games, they vote for their brother-in-law, they can vote for their former teammate, they can vote for their fraternity brother. I respect most coaches a lot but evaluating the performance of an officiating crew is not their strong suit.