motion

[jpenny]

NHFS Play, A lines up at wide out as a back,he sets for 2 sec. he then takes one step forward and goes in motion toward the tight end on the LOS.This is to block the DE.Where does it state that this is a foul or is it? I cked ART.7 not much help.

[Fedex]

Ok...I don't have my rulebooks with me, but I'll give it a shot.

If he steps up and is now on the line, that would make 8 on the line and that is legal. Now if he goes in motion towards the TE, this would be illegal motion when the ball is snapped because he became an end when he moved up.

If he's still in the backfield after his step up and is angling forward towards the TE with his motion, it would also be illegal motion at the snap.

In both cases, 5 yards from the previous spot if accepted by B.

Scott

[svm1010]

Originally Posted by jpenny

NHFS Play, A lines up at wide out as a back,he sets for 2 sec. he then takes one step forward and goes in motion toward the tight end on the LOS.This is to block the DE.Where does it state that this is a foul or is it? I cked ART.7 not much help.

7-2-7. (summary) player in motion must be at least 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap. (other than the QB which is covered under an exception)

Personal interpretation....I think you have a foul at the snap fo Illegal Motion since he is not 5 yards deep at the snap.

[jpenny]

Guys he started out as a back 7.2.7 not on the line so does the 5 yds still apply/

[Warrenkicker]

It is a bit difficult to "see" the motion you are describing. Did the player in motion step up and move parallel to the LOS but also break the waist of the snapper or tight end while in motion? This probably puts him in a position that would result in an illegal formation. Or did he step forward and then angle forward while in motion running toward the tight end as opposed to running parallel to the LOS? This would result in illegal motion.

You know what you are trying to ask and can see it in your mind. You also know what is important here and what isn't. One interpretation of your play could say this is a perfectly legal play as it was legal motion as a back but another could say it is illegal motion on the LOS.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by svm1010

7-2-7. (summary) player in motion must be at least 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap. (other than the QB which is covered under an exception).

You left out an important part of that sentence and that is that he has to be 5 yds behind the line of scrimmage IF he started in a position where he didn't establish himself clearly as a back and according to the OP, he did.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by jpenny

NHFS Play, A lines up at wide out as a back,he sets for 2 sec. he then takes one step forward and goes in motion toward the tight end on the LOS.This is to block the DE.Where does it state that this is a foul or is it? I cked ART.7 not much help.

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal. Motion behind the line is not restricted.

The only restriction is that the eligibles on the ends of the line may only move laterally prior to the snap.

[svm1010]

Originally Posted by kdf5

You left out an important part of that sentence and that is that he has to be 5 yds behind the line of scrimmage IF he started in a position where he didn't establish himself clearly as a back and according to the OP, he did.

Yes, but he has to be a back to be in motion legally. If he is not a clearly established back then you have illegal motion there as well.

[Gmoore]

Originally Posted by svm1010

Yes, but he has to be a back to be in motion legally. If he is not a clearly established back then you have illegal motion there as well.

Has to be established as a back OR the player at the end of his line.If the person at the end of his line goes in motion he is required to be 5 yards behind the LOS

[Jim D]

This is similar to a post on the other board. This player established himself as a back in his initial position and the only motion restriction on a back is that he not be moving forward at the snap.

This guy can go in motion and be moving down the line (he's still is a back in motion because he never stopped and reset) or he can be anywhere else behind the LOS when the ball is snapped and be legal.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by jpenny

NHFS Play, A lines up at wide out as a back,he sets for 2 sec. he then takes one step forward and goes in motion toward the tight end on the LOS.This is to block the DE.Where does it state that this is a foul or is it? I cked ART.7 not much help.

The back cannot go in motion on the line of scrimmage, his motion must not be toward the opponents goal line. You have to interpret the rule to arrive at that conclusion as the back has to be one yard off the LOS and to get to the LOS his motion would be forward.

If the assumption is his motion is legal, that is, he is, at least, one yard off the LOS he can legally block the DE. But that legal block cannot be in the back or below the waist.

The five yards into the backfield was mentioned for the motion man. That only applies to a player who did not establish himself as a back before going in motion. This is an artifact from when a player could enter the free blocking zone and block below the waist.

[svm1010]

So we get to dig really deep into the rule book on this one.

On page 89 under the motion section you can read......
"Except for the QB under the snapper, the player in motion who started from a position not clearly behind the line of scrimmage and did not establish himself as a back by stopping or at least one second, must be at least 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap. Either a player legally in the backfield or a player legally on the end of the LOS may go in motion if these previous requirements are satisfied.

So,

A) If you have a player established as a back he can go in motion and it is legal as long as he does not motion towards the opponents goal line.

B) If you have a player not established as a back he must be on the end of the Line and he must retreat at least 5 yards into the BF before the snap occurs.

Based on the original situation I believe case A applies I have been unable to find anything that says the motion must be 1 yard off the LOS. Ed, do you have a rules reference for that?

If not I might be changing my answer..... Legal motion?

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by svm1010

So we get to dig really deep into the rule book on this one.

On page 89 under the motion section you can read......
"Except for the QB under the snapper, the player in motion who started from a position not clearly behind the line of scrimmage and did not establish himself as a back by stopping or at least one secon, must be at least 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap.

So,

A) If you have a player established as a back he can go in motion and it is legal as long as he does not motion towards the opponents goal line.

B) If you have a player not established as a back he must be on the end of the Line and he must retreat at least 5 yards into the BF before the snap occurs.

Based on the original situation I believe case A applies I have been unable to find anything that says the motion must be 1 yard of the LOS. Ed, do you have a rules reference for that?

If not I might be changing my answer..... Legal motion?

I'll go you one farther - it only says he may not be going forward AT THE SNAP so, as long a back does not simulate the start of the play, his motion can ease forward. He can start as a legal back and he could work his way forward till he is even with the line of scrimmage and then keep moving parallel down the line as the ball is snapped. I've never seen it and it would give no particular advantage to A, but I would say it is legal.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Jim D

Originally Posted by svm1010
So we get to dig really deep into the rule book on this one.

On page 89 under the motion section you can read......
"Except for the QB under the snapper, the player in motion who started from a position not clearly behind the line of scrimmage and did not establish himself as a back by stopping or at least one secon, must be at least 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap.

So,

A) If you have a player established as a back he can go in motion and it is legal as long as he does not motion towards the opponents goal line.

B) If you have a player not established as a back he must be on the end of the Line and he must retreat at least 5 yards into the BF before the snap occurs.

Based on the original situation I believe case A applies I have been unable to find anything that says the motion must be 1 yard of the LOS. Ed, do you have a rules reference for that?

If not I might be changing my answer..... Legal motion?

I'll go you one farther - it only says he may not be going forward AT THE SNAP so, as long a back does not simulate the start of the play, his motion can ease forward. He can start as a legal back and he could work his way forward till he is even with the line of scrimmage and then keep moving parallel down the line as the ball is snapped. I've never seen it and it would give no particular advantage to A, but I would say it is legal.

First, there is an implicit assumption motion begins when the player starts and that the motion is indeed parallel or backwards. The words "at the snap" are used to signify the motion can be stopped before the snap. Example, A45 after the offense is set goes in motion toward the LOS, then stops for a full second before the snap. His motion would be legal because he terminated it and was set for a full second before the snap.

As to the rule reference 7-2-2 defines requirements for a player to be a lineman. The player in motion is not a lineman by definition as he is not facing his opponent goal (2-30-9), nor, is he truly a back as he does have a part of his body breaking the imaginary line parallel to the LOS through the waistline of the center (2-30-3).

Therefore, A's motion is illegal.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

First, there is an implicit assumption motion begins when the player starts and that the motion is indeed parallel or backwards. The words "at the snap" are used to signify the motion can be stopped before the snap. Example, A45 after the offense is set goes in motion toward the LOS, then stops for a full second before the snap. His motion would be legal because he terminated it and was set for a full second before the snap.

As to the rule reference 7-2-2 defines requirements for a player to be a lineman. The player in motion is not a lineman by definition as he is not facing his opponent goal (2-30-9), nor, is he truly a back as he does have a part of his body breaking the imaginary line parallel to the LOS through the waistline of the center (2-30-3).

Therefore, A's motion is illegal.

If he stopped his motion and became set for one second before the snap, he is no longer in motion; it's now just a shift. I never saw anything that said he went so far forward that he was breaking the waistline of the center. Unless he ends up in motion obviously on the line of scrimmage, this would be too technical of an interpretation and looking for trouble.