Invalid Signal and Punt Receiver Gets Leveled (NFHS)
 

NFHS rules:

Fourth and 10 for team K at its own 40.

R5 gives an invalid fair catch signal at his own 20. a) After R5 catches the ball, K44 hits R5 drawing a DEAD BALL personal foul
b) K44 hits R5 while the ball is ALIVE drawing a kick-catching interference foul.

All fouls are accepted.

Who has the ball and where?

NFHS rules.

In a) you have a PSK foul for the invalid signal. Since R caught the ball the spot of the foul or the spot of the catch is the enforcement spot, whichever is worse in this case. Then the DB PF would be enforced against K. So we would go back 5 yards and then up 15 yards for 1-10 for R.

In b) you have two live-ball fouls by opposing teams prior to any change of possession. R's foul may be a PSK foul once we find out some more things. We need more information as to if the ball was touched by R, if that touching was forced touching, and who ended the play with possession. If R ended the play with the ball, or at least K would not be the next to put the ball in play, then R could decline K's KCI penalty and keep the ball after the PSK penalty is enforced. R would also have the choice to offset the penalties and repeat the down if they wanted. If K ended the down with possession after R had touched the ball then we would have offsetting fouls and would have to repeat the down.

Invalid signals do not afford the punt returner any protection. So they can get (technically) leveled. But the ball is dead once the ball is possesses on the kick.

Peace

Yes. Though you could have a personal foul if he got him in the head or [Ben Dreith]gave him the business down there[/Ben Dreith] or something. It wouldn't be KCI, but could be a personal foul if it was too rough.

We discussed this quite a bit in our meetings last week. As a safety thing, we have been told by the state rules interpreter to shut it down if there's an invalid fair catch signal as soon as possession is attained.

That is why I said "technically." We are always going to shut down the play if anyone gives a valid or invalid (illegal) FC signal. We are only going to give protection to the player that gave a valid signal.

Peace

Did I miss something?
 

Once R5 gives ANY signal and catches the ball the play is over.
Thus, it is not possible for K44 to "hit" R5 (after the catch and) while the ball is ALIVE!

Ruling for b) Invalid fair catch signal against R5, Dead Ball Personal Foul against K44.
Generally, R would want to keep the ball and thus both fouls would be enforced!

Chump edit so it makes sense.

You're right, you can't have KCI AFTER a valid or invalid fair catch.

Horrible advice by the interpreter. It is shut down by rule. The whistle is no quicker than on a valid fair catch made by R.

How many inexperienced officials are going to hear that as "I better blow a quick whistle and "protect" the receiver?"

An IW waiting to happen....

And as a Back Judge, I am not going to be blowing my whistle to protect a player that made a valid fair catch signal. If the play is over, the play is over. The kicking team should know who and when gave a signal. If they do not, my whistle blowing is not going to change how I rule.

Peace

No, you don't blow a QUICK whistle on any catch of a punt, because sure as shoot, you do that, he muffs it and you're left with an IW. But you don't let the guy take off after an invalid signal (or after a signal by someone else that the returner may not have seen), you shut it down there. Didn't mean you jumped on it as soon as you can. As you say, it's dead by rule.

Practically speaking, on an invalid signal where are you going to attempt to place the spot of the foul? The situation I'm thinking of is when the R is running up to get the short kick and makes an invalid signal. Since I would think you are going to allow him the opportunity to make the signal valid sometime before the catch, you are probably going to hold your flag until the catch. If he never does make it valid, how do you establish the actual spot of the foul, it now being somewhere behind the actual catch? Or will it just become the dead ball spot of the catch for practical purposes.

As for the whistle comments, I'm beginning to think the pendulum is swinging too far the other way by adopting this whistles are not needed and we are approaching a situation as bad as before when whistles were getting blown all the time creating problems. The quote was "whistle as soon as possession is attained". Now then you can make all sorts of comments what you should be careful of here, but there is nothing wrong with that taken as it is. Yes, you better not anticipate the catch, yes you better make sure the catch is made and yes that means you might be a step slow with the whistle. But to say you are not going to blow any whistle to protect the guy and it's up to players to realize what's happening during the chaos of the game of football, especially during the extra chaos of kicking situations, is just asking for a game to get out of hand. The entire idea behind whistle control "rules" is so you are not blowing it when it shouldn't be blown, but I don't think we should be using it as an excuse to not blow it when it is needed and hiding behind some bs like "the players should know when it's dead".

REPLY: I'll be the last one to say we shouldn't blow a whistle because the play kills itself, but...I agree 100% with JRutledge and RichMSN and OverandBack on this situation. Blowing a quick whistle after a fair catch signal in a misguided attempt to protect the receiver is a train wreck waiting to happen. Everybody in the **** stadium knows the ball is going to be dead when he catches it, and nobody from the kicking team with any amount of cranial matter is going to hit him. Let this play kill itself completely. I (as a BJ) don't blow my whistle until the receiver straightens up and begins to look to give me the ball.

I guess the whole part of making sure the catch is made and being a step slow with the whistle didn't register.

REPLY: Oh, it registered. Just wanted to reinforce it.

What do you base this on? 4-2-2g states, "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal..." I believe the punt receiver is still afforded protection, despite the invalid signal.

LJDave,
See rule 6-5-3

We need to change you believe as fair catch protection does not applies to a receiver who has made an invalid signal. Sure the play is over when caught, but the receiver might be contacted before the whistle has signaled the end of the play. If this contact is of such intensity, or say by the face mask, you can have a foul on K, but it is not kick catch interference. 6-5-3.

While looking at 6-5-3 you must also review 6-5-6 as while a receiver who gives a fair catch signal is afforded protection a receiver who has not given a fair catch signal must be afforded the opportunity to catch the ball.

The concept of the Fair Catch is simple, R forfeits their right to advance the ball in return for an unmolested opportunity to complete the catch. The decision if, and when, to invoke that arrangement is ENTIRELY up to R.

R announces their decision to make a Fair Catch, by giving a valid signal, which by definition suggests it should be visible, timely and meet the requirements of a defined valid signal. Most officials understand that a last second signal, technically valid or invalid, may not bind a defensive player to the requirements of a valid Fair Catch, if in the judgment of that official, the defense was not given a reasonable opportunity to respond to the signal.

By rule we are required to stop play when an invalid signal has been given, even though the rule clearly states protection is no afforded. As for contact after such a signal has been given, the basic principle is simply whether the signal, which evidently did not meet the requirements of a valid FC signal, conveyed a message to the defense that a Fair Catch was intended AND was, whatever signal offered, given with enough warning that the defensive player had a reasonable opportunity to respond to it.

Splitting hairs regarding miliseconds between the catch, the whistle and the contact is not the objective. The defensive player is entitled, if not required, to contact the receiver of a kick as soon as possible AFTER the catch. The FC signal, valid or invalid, has to be clear enough to announce the intention of making a FC with enough opportunity for a defensive player, bearing down on the receiver, to recognize the signal and respond to it.

When the receiver fails to deliver a valid signal, or any signal without enough advanced warning for the defense to properly respond to it, the fault lies directly with the receiver, whose penalty may well be the contact he could have avoided by signalling properly.

I tell my BJ: On any signal, valid or invalid, there will be no return. Drop your whistle out of your mouth after the snap, therefore, no IW. (This goes for all of us.)

As for the flag, we throw it where the invalid signal is made. It may be behind the basic spot (end of the kick) if the receiver moves up a couple steps to make the catch.

I think that is 2 different subjects.

Not true, R is given an umolested opportunity to make a catch with or without a fair catch signal. That is why we have a kick catch interference rule. What the fair catch signal means is R is giving up his right to advance the ball after the catch and in return he gets protection from being hit after said catch.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

Our equivalent to the fair catch rule designed to afford the punt receiver some protection is the Restraining Zone rule - the 5 yard halo around R.

No offside-to-the-punter K player can be inside a 5 yard halo centered at R5 when R5 first touches the ball. It's a 5 or 15 yard penalty, depending on if the ball had bounced first, and/or if the K player immediately participated in the tackle. It the descriptions above, if K was inside the 5 yard halo at the PFT, there will be a 15 yard Restraining Zone penalty applied. Result: B 1D/10 @ PFT+15.

You are technically correct MikeL, but I think you're splitting hairs, that really doesn't much matter. NF: 2.9.1 does use the language,"...under conditions in which the receiver forfeits the right to advance the ball in return for protection from being blocked or tackled by an opponent."

The point, however, was that it's the Receiver who initiates the action and is responsible to signal clearly and in such a manner that the defense can reasonably respond to the signal.