Pass play
 

3rd and 15 for A at A's 25 yd line. A81 runs a sideline pattern and steps on the sideline for 3 steps, returns to the field at the 43 yd line, catches a pass and is tackled at the 47 yd line. What do we have, and how is it enforced?

NFHS: Illegal participation on A81. Since this is a loose ball play, the basic spot is the previous spot. 3rd and 30 at the A 12.5 yard line. I think? :)

Sounds right to me.

NCAA: it's just a loss of down from previous spot.
Illegal touching A81 (as long as he went out voluntarily and was not forced out).
4rd and 15 for A at A's 25 yd line

Actually enforcement would be from the spot of the foul at the 43 where he re-entered the field, would it not? I remember we are supposed to have our flag at the spot he re-entered.

The spot of the foul is where the player returns inbounds (Case Book:9.6.1.a), but the basic spot, for enforcing a penalty for a foul occuring during a loose ball play is the previous spot, NF 10.4.1)

That is correct. You do not have a flag on the ground UNLESS he comes back in IB's before the ball becomes dead and then the flag should be at spot he returned IB's. This is a loose ball play, so the BS is the PS, which will be the enforcement spot unless the penalty occurred behind the BS.

So let's talk about enforcement philosophy on this play. When would it be appropriate to keep the flag in your pocket, especially if the ball wasn't thrown or thrown to the other side of the field?

I think
 

in those two sitchs you would keep the flag as his leaving the field had no bearing on the play. If he reenters the field and is involved in the play you have to flag it.

What if it is a long developing play and he goes out early while the ball is in the QBs hands still, return to the field and runs 10 yards then QB throws the ball. Are we flagging as soon as he returns to the field or is that one where you can come up and drop the flag after the play ends?

IMO, if the ball was gone already, just being thrown, or thrown just after he re-entered the field, I would not have a flag on the ground. If he did get involved in the play in any way, by blocking or such, I'd have a late flag on the yard line he re-entered the field of play. I believe that is what a supervisor would say.

Couldn't you just drop the flag and confer afterwards? I know a wave-off never looks good, but what is worse: dropping an inadvertant, or have a player go 50 yards for a TD, then after signalling, running back down the sideline to throw the flag. I guess, if the placement is not critical, then anywhere on the sideline would suffice. But then everyone will think it was PI and that will get the crowd going. At least that's what I'm told; I wear ear plugs!!

Being able to judge whether a violation deserves attention and punishment, and when it doesn't make any difference to play is the essence of officiating. The mechanic for an eligible receiver going OOB (on his own) and then coming back is; beanbag when he goes out, flag when he comes back.

In a passing situation it's not going to make much of a difference where the flag is thrown, because enforcement will likely be from the previous spot. With most penalties, it's wise to consider what effect the infraction has on the action before launching a flag, and if that conclusion is there was not any relevant effect, perhaps a private instructional warning might be a more effective remedy.

If some astute sideline observer questions why there is a beanbag, and no subsequent flag, a simple response that the action had no effect on play or provided any unfair advantage should address any reasonable inquiry. If the inquiry turns out to be unreasonable, there are different ways to deal with that.

The effect on the play should be considered. If the ball is thrown down the middle of the field or to the other side I have nothing. If the play is to his side and he gets involved in the pass or subsequent blocking, then we have to flag it. I think the good official can tell which is which and the plays develop very quickly, so you should have an idea really soon after it starts.

I would go one step further to say if he is in the area where the ball is thrown and his presence is noticed by the defense he has affected the play by his presence.

I can't find this in my books...but a lot of mechanics aren't in the books, so can someone...anyone explain why bag the spot he goes out, that is not a spot you will ever need for any reason, its kind of like bagging a muffed snap or a fumble behind the line.

I don't know as we don't use it here. Our association's mechanic is to flag where the player comes back in.

Great discussion folks, thanks for the feedback.

I agree that there is no reason at all to bean bag the spot where he goes out of bounds - that spot means nothing and we have no need to go back to it or refer to it. It's the coming back in that is the foul and that should properly marked with a flag.

As it was explained, long ago, the purpose of the beanbag is to verify "that" (as well as where) the player was observed going OOB (on his own) which supports the penalty for a subsequent flag for illegal participation, when the flag is thrown.

It seems to follow the same logic of using a beanbag to identify an incident of "first touching" as a support to the subsequent awarding of the ball at a different location, or even team, following either a free or scrimmage kick. Of course the actual location of the first touching is more significant than where an individual went OOB, but the verification support the presence of a beandbag provides is similar and can minimize, or possibly avoid, unnecessary doubt about a penalty which is created by two separate and distinct actions occuring at different locations.

I'm not sure a coach who wouldn't take my word if I say a player stepped out of bounds will believe me if I thow a bean bag and then say he stepped out of bounds. I don't have "verification" for my calls during a game - pass interference, clipping, blocking below the waist. I think this just adds confusions if some crews do it and some don't.

Perhaps I should have said "Our" mechanic, rather than "The" mechanic, as sometimes we all may presume that the mechanics used in one area are universal, which often they are not.

"When in Rome", often applies to football officiating as well. If you believe that this, or any mechanic, is confusing or unnecessary and is not the practice in your area, then by all means you can choose to ignore it.

ReffingRef asked what the logic was, and I was simply answering him.

REPLY: The big issue here is if his return has a subsequent bearing on the play, and if that play that began with a passing situation but instead turns into a running play which ends beyond his point of return. Now you darn well better know where he returned since this will be the point of enforcement.

Are you talking about a play where the ball is never thrown?

REPLY: Yes. I should have been more clear about that.

Then I had better see a flag laying on the spot where he stepped back in or I'll be eating and drinking for free after the game!

REPLY: That was precisely my point (the position of the flag...not the free meal).:)

I would not recommend this. What if the coach requests a conference. When he asks you about the rule, you would be cooked. This is a foul and to waive it off can create problems.

So is holding away from the play...
 

course we don't flag that. I don't think this is necessarily the best way to handle it, however I don't think it would create that much confusion. We just tell the coach that his actions had no bearing on the play and common sense tells us to pick up the flag.

REPLY: "course we don't flag that." That's the difference and why I agree with parepat. We don't flag the insignificant hold away from the point of attack. parepat's answer was to the situation where the IP was flagged and then waved off. Imagine you flagged that hold and then waved it off. You'd be in the same boat. Either determine it deserves a flag and live with it, or don't flag it. The worst thing you can do here is flag it, then determine it really didn't deserve the flag, and wave it off.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

A81 stepping OOB is not one of the four valid reasons to touch OOB during a live play. This is illegal participation. Official should flag it.

The four valid reasons for being OOB are:

• being blocked to OOB
• trying to tackle/block an opponent, missing, and having your momentum take you OOB
• fielding a kick
• slipping on the field and touching OOB

It would actually be 3rd and 27.5 yard's to go, if the basic spot was the 25?

Yeah it would be, at least I got the ball placement correct. :eek: Nice catch!