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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 26, 2007, 07:47am
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As TXMike notes the facemask penalty is decline by rule:

Fouls During a Try After Team B Possession—ARTICLE 4
Approved Ruling 8-3-4
I. B15 intercepts Team A’s legal forward pass (PAT attempt) and is running at midfield when tackled by A19, who grasps B 15’s face mask. RULING: The try is ended, and the penalty is declined by rule.

IMO it would be a good rule change to "eliminate the free one" and treat any PF after a COP on a try, the same way you would treat a team B PF that occurred during a successful try - enforce it on the kickoff, or at the succeeding spot in extra periods. IMO we shouldn't have a case where a player can commit a 15 yard PF knowing that since it occurred after a COP on a try it's "free".

Or even better would be to add a definition of the phrase "live ball fouls enforced as dead ball fouls", then add a section to the summary of penalties, including all of the current LBDB fouls (taunting, etc) and add this one to the list.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 26, 2007, 12:11pm
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Since the "live ball penalized as dead ball fouls" are not specifically defined in the rules, please give me the list of such fouls and rules support for the list.

The reason I think the PF/FM is such is because you penalize Team B from the end of the run or succeeding spot. PF penalties like clipping (which is the other AR in 8-3) and chop blocks are not so penalized. Further, Roy, in your AR example, it says "grasps" the face mask. As you well know, the rule calls for a 5 yard penalty for "incidental grasping" and the AR doesn't make it clear that it is not an incidental grasp.

Don't misunderstand here: I'm not NOW saying I'm right. I'm NOW pointing all this out because this can be ambiguous. Is a roughing the passer a live ball penalized as a dead ball?

At any rate, whether the face mask is such a rule, I guess the overall point remains that there IS an exception.

Last edited by Texas Aggie; Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 12:20pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 26, 2007, 12:42pm
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No need to get snotty. And you can do the research as well as the rest of us and it would probably be a good exercise for you. There is no predesignated list I am aware of but if you go through the book you will find things such as 9-1-5 PENALTY where it specifically states "Penalize as a dead ball foul" or 9-2-4 PENALTY

PS Your comment that " The reason I think the PF/FM is such is because you penalize Team B from the end of the run or succeeding spot. PF penalties like clipping (which is the other AR in 8-3) and chop blocks are not so penalized." is inaccurate. Both have BASIC SPOT enforcement. That might be the end of the run, or it might be previous spot, or it might be the spot of the foul. There are a lot of variables that have to be considered.

The penalty enforcement for RTP is unique and is so unique that the rule specifically addresses how it is to be enforced (but it is not a live ball penalized as a dead ball foul anyway).
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 26, 2007, 02:39pm
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Not sure why you think I was getting snotty. Only asking for a specific clarification, and you made your assertion on language in the rule, which I think is reasonable. But I don't think that ends the discussion.

I did a search on the PDF, and there appears to be -- assuming all live ball penalized as dead ball have the phrase you listed -- 4 such fouls:

-- prohibited signal devices
-- illegal cleats
-- game administration interference
-- contacting an official

The problem I have here is that there are other examples of what we'd think were live ball fouls that are penalized as dead ball fouls:

-- diving into the end zone (under 9-2)
-- personal fouls on tries and field goals if good

Even though these two examples don't use the language you reference, they have to be considered live ball fouls that are penalized as dead ball fouls. 8-3-3-e says expressly that roughing the kicker is a live ball foul. I don't think that you can say, given the fact that this phrase isn't defined, that just because the wording of the penalty says PF on tries are enforced on a kickoff if the try is good that this isn't a live ball foul penalized as a dead ball foul -- since that's EXACTLY what it is!

You are correct on RTP, but I'd draw your attention to these and possibly other examples -- say a PF on a player out of the play during a scrimmage down. I had that penalty the other night in a game. I realize some of these penalty references say "dead ball fouls", but the definition of dead ball is "a ball not in play." These fouls can occur when the ball was in play.

I think ultimately, Roy is correct. They need to define the phrase and list the specific fouls. My point is that I don't think its unreasonable to think that there are other Live ball fouls penalized as dead ball fouls in cases where the language is not as you listed. If you can convince me otherwise, please do. I want to get the call right on the field, and if I'm wrong on here, that's fine.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 26, 2007, 03:15pm
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Not sure what else can be said. You are mixing things up too much and trying to take the effective result of an enforcement and saying that it equates to a live ball foul being penalized as a dead ball foul. But the fallacy in doing that is that you are ignoring the specific language in certain rules that makes the enforcement in certain situations somewhat outside the norm.

As for your PF against a player out of the play, you and your crew have to make a decision as to when that foul took place. If you decide it happened after the ball became dead, enforce as a dead ball foul. If it happened while live, then enforce as a live ball foul. The argument over this situation has been discussed pretty well on the various discussion boards. You CANNOT say that foul happened while the ball was live and enforce it as a dead ball foul. There is NO way the rules provide for that.

If you do not think it is unreasonable to create your own penalty enforcements then there really is not much need to even discuss further.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 26, 2007, 03:40pm
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OK, so are you saying that those 4 listed fouls (or any more if I missed one or more) that use the language you stated are the ONLY live ball fouls penalized as dead ball fouls?

I can't be responsible for knowing what's posted on other boards in time passed. I visit this board and have briefly lurked at others.

Quote:
You CANNOT say that foul happened while the ball was live and enforce it as a dead ball foul. There is NO way the rules provide for that.
I gave you at least one specific example of how your statement here has to be incorrect -- the diving into the end zone. I also think that the roughing the kicker on a try or field goal (when its good) is another example, because both fouls are during live ball plays and the enforcement is "as a dead ball." I will concede 2 things: first, the roughing foul is a bit more problematic because if the FG or try is no good, or there is a foul by Team A, it isn't enforced as a dead ball. I think you are also correct about the PF during the play.

However, without a specific listing based on rules support, how are we to know the 4 stated fouls are it, since there ARE live ball fouls that are penalized as dead ball fouls, even if only in LIMITED circumstances? The rule doesn't say "live ball fouls penalized ONLY as dead ball fouls."

If you truly don't think this issue is open for discussion, I think that's unreasonable.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 26, 2007, 04:34pm
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My comment about not making a live ball foul a dead ball one was specifically directed at your example of the player hitting a player who is out of the play. I fully realize there are some live ball fouls that are penalized as dead ball. That is what this whole issue is about isn't it?

All I am saying is don't make stuff up. The rules give specific penalty enforcements. All you have to do is follow them and not to to get "creative" just because you "want" to do something that the rules do not provide for.

Afre the rules complicated? You bet! But that is why we get paid the big bucks.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 26, 2007, 04:51pm
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As I hinted at the end of my previous post, the LB-DB fouls are somewhat of a mystery due to the lack of a coherent definition and summary of specific penalties contained within the LB-DB terminology in the NCAA rules. This subject always generates some discussion (as it did here) by asking who can read the rulebook and come up with the complete and correct list of all of the "true" LB-DB fouls.

The confusion gets a little worse when you take an actual live ball foul (let's say roughing the passer on a successful TD pass), and then enforce it the same way you would enforce a DB foul that happened after the end of the play (at a succeeding spot, on the try or on the subsequent kickoff).

But the rules guru's say that this isn't a "live ball foul, enforced as a dead ball foul" even though that's exactly what you do.

I'll agree that this one is tough to fully understand, but until the rulesmakers decide to actually define the term (LB-DB) and put a summary of the specific violations covered under the term, we're left to reading a 200+ page book with references scattered around to figure it out.
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Last edited by RoyGardner; Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 05:17pm.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 26, 2007, 07:33pm
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As TXMike said the penalties that are stated in different rules dictate where the enforcement spot is. The Personal foul facemask is enforced from the basic spot. After team B gains possession during a Try or in Extra Periods those penalties are declined by rule because there is no enforcement spot. The enforcement spot for that foul during normal play would be from the end of the related run. A couple years ago the rules had also had an exception to where flagrant personal fouls could be enforced from the succeeding spot but they removed that rule and now only Live Ball Fouls penalized as Dead Ball fouls are the only ones that carry over when a foul occurs after B gains possession. As TXMike state the proper penalty enforcement is listed with each foul. Rule 9 has lots of them. 9-1-5 Penalize as a dead ball foul, 9-2-1 dead ball foul, 9-2-1-b dead ball foul, the list goes on and on.

Check out 3-1-3-3 Examples 3 & 4 for a good example of a Personal foul compared to Unsportsmanlike conduct.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 27, 2007, 10:27pm
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Back to the original subject...

Can team A score a one point safety in the 3rd OT and beyond?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 05:35am
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I will admit that the wording of the rule might lead to some dispute but the intent of the rule is clear, teams are forced to go for 2 in order to hopefully expedite the end of the game. Even though a 1-point safety by A might be considered a "one-point try" that is not what the rule was intended to address. Team A can get 1 point, even in the 3d OT and beyond, if done by safety.

.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 08:39am
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I am curious how the overtime rule is written for the third overtime and beyond in reference to trys. Using NF rules a successful try is defined as:

8-3-3 During a try, A may score two points from what would be a touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play at other times during the game.

I'm sure the NCAA rule does not just dumb everything down by saying that a team must go for two. It probably says something like "a field goal during a try will not score one point" or something similar. So show us what the rule says because I also believe they don't want to not award a point for a safety in this situation.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 09:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
I gave you at least one specific example of how your statement here has to be incorrect -- the diving into the end zone. I also think that the roughing the kicker on a try or field goal (when its good) is another example, because both fouls are during live ball plays and the enforcement is "as a dead ball." I will concede 2 things: first, the roughing foul is a bit more problematic because if the FG or try is no good, or there is a foul by Team A, it isn't enforced as a dead ball. I think you are also correct about the PF during the play.
I don't know if the NCAA rule is the same as the NFHS rule but diving into the end zone is unsportsmanlike conduct. USC is a live ball foul that's penalized as a dead ball foul.

Based on your interpretation, ALL live ball fouls are penalized as dead ball fouls and we know that simply isn't true. The other guys are correct. You're misinterpreting the rule.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 09:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
The same should apply with the facemask infraction. The NCAA should not give teams free reign to foul on conversions in this manner.
It was a one in a million foul. I'm quite sure the kid who fouled was just rying to make a play. While it was ugly, it wasn't a premeditated cheap shot. Rarely is a face mask an "intentional" foul.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 28, 2007, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC
Back to the original subject...

Can team A score a one point safety in the 3rd OT and beyond?
Here is the rulebook wording:
=========================
Beginningwith the third extra period, teams scoring a touchdown must attempt a two-point try. A one-point try by Team A (although not illegal) will not score a point.
=========================

While I did not find a definition, any time the words "one point try" are used in the rulebook, it refers to a try by kicking what would otherwise by a field goal.

So IMO, this simply means team A won't be awarded a point if they kick the ball through the uprights. Any other play that results in a score by Team A still counts.
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