The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Football (https://forum.officiating.com/football/)
-   -   Is hand chop required? (https://forum.officiating.com/football/39183-hand-chop-required.html)

Ray_from_Mi Sat Oct 27, 2007 07:10pm

Is hand chop required?
 
During the kickoff procedure after the WH blows the whistle for 'ready for play' does the back judge (who's is on the kicking line) need to hand chop the last 5 seconds, or is that only required for scrimmage plays?

JugglingReferee Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:11pm

Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray_from_Mi
During the kickoff procedure after the WH blows the whistle for 'ready for play' does the back judge (who's is on the kicking line) need to hand chop the last 5 seconds, or is that only required for scrimmage plays?

CANADIAN RULING:

We do not show a visible warning that the play clock is about to expire on any play: kickoff or scrimmage play. Some officials will verbalize, "hurry up".

MJT Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:18pm

In Iowa, we have been specifically instructed by the state office to NOT have the B chop in for any plays.

Sonofanump Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:18pm

Ohio ruling
 
We don't chop, we do however put our hand above our head to signal 5 or less seconds remaining. I will, but have not had to yet on a kickoff.

Warrenkicker Mon Oct 29, 2007 09:18am

If your state requires you to give a visible signal for the 25 second clock and if you are allowed to call delay-of-game in the kicking team for kick-offs then you should count out the last 5 seconds of the play clock on a kick-off.

dldsooner Mon Oct 29, 2007 01:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJT
In Iowa, we have been specifically instructed by the state office to NOT have the B chop in for any plays.

We call a lot of 8 man in Oklahoma, and they do not have the luxury of a play clock. Our back judge will chop the final 5 seconds so the offense is aware that time is about to expire.

MJT, I do not understand why Iowa will not let you chop for any play, does the offense not have the right to know how much time is left before they get hit with a d-o-g penalty?

Ref Ump Welsch Mon Oct 29, 2007 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dldsooner
We call a lot of 8 man in Oklahoma, and they do not have the luxury of a play clock. Our back judge will chop the final 5 seconds so the offense is aware that time is about to expire.

MJT, I do not understand why Iowa will not let you chop for any play, does the offense not have the right to know how much time is left before they get hit with a d-o-g penalty?

In Nebraska, we count out the 5-seconds, just like in basketball, with the chopping movement. Back judge is required to do it in 5-man crew, while R and U (or just R) are supposed to do it in 4-man (and don't ask me why!).

In Iowa, NO signal whatsoever. The IHSAA feels that giving any kind of signal puts the offense at an advantage of knowing the 25-seconds is winding down, since the BJ is always behind the defense. It "disadvantages" the defense. I think it's stupid because if the defense knows the clock is winding down, then they can shift and show a different blitz or whatever that would force the QB to reaudible or call timeout or risk the DOG penalty.

PSU213 Mon Oct 29, 2007 06:51pm

Our BJ does not 'chop' for any plays. He just puts his hand up at the 5 second mark. I would doubt if the QB (obviously at the LOS) could even see his 'chopping' 20 yards deep.

Ref Ump Welsch Mon Oct 29, 2007 07:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSU213
Our BJ does not 'chop' for any plays. He just puts his hand up at the 5 second mark. I would doubt if the QB (obviously at the LOS) could even see his 'chopping' 20 yards deep.

I can see your point, and this was raised at the Nebraska rules meeting when this was brought up the first time. The NSAA said the chop is better than the raised hand, otherwise the QB would think there's a dead ball. :rolleyes:

Ref inSoCA Mon Oct 29, 2007 08:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dldsooner
We call a lot of 8 man in Oklahoma, and they do not have the luxury of a play clock. Our back judge will chop the final 5 seconds so the offense is aware that time is about to expire.

MJT, I do not understand why Iowa will not let you chop for any play, does the offense not have the right to know how much time is left before they get hit with a d-o-g penalty?

That's what coaches are for. Why do we have to do their job?

We don't chop either. It's stupid.

Rich Mon Oct 29, 2007 08:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref inSoCA
That's what coaches are for. Why do we have to do their job?

We don't chop either. It's stupid.

No, that's what on field play clocks are for and they exist in NCAA and NFL football. If we don't have them, we tell everyone how much time's left on the play clock. Not doing so is stupid.

MJT Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dldsooner
MJT, I do not understand why Iowa will not let you chop for any play, does the offense not have the right to know how much time is left before they get hit with a d-o-g penalty?

We were told that if there is not a 25 second clock available that the offense would have to keep track of it themselves. If they want to know, they keep it on a watch from the whistle. That is part of coaching we were told.

JRutledge Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:05am

I still chop even though no one has told me either way what to do. This is not really a big deal either way. I do not see a right or wrong for this situation.

Peace

Bob M. Tue Oct 30, 2007 07:49am

REPLY: We were told that we must chop the last 5 seconds. In fact, more and more, coaches are relying on us to serve as their 'surrogate' play clock when they're trying to run out the clock. Their QBs will look right at the BJ and snap when his chop gets to 23 or 24 seconds expired. Very effective.

Ref Ump Welsch Tue Oct 30, 2007 07:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJT
We were told that if there is not a 25 second clock available that the offense would have to keep track of it themselves. If they want to know, they keep it on a watch from the whistle. That is part of coaching we were told.

The offense keeping on a watch from the whistle. Dangerous territory there, because if both teams have a coach standing on the sidelines with a watch and you flag a DOG at 24 seconds (even if you have 25 on your watch), you'll catch so much grief both teams might not have any coaches to finish the game because you'll be kicking them all out on USC's. This was what the NSAA was wanting to avoid by having the chopping on the last 5 seconds. It brings consistency because the BJ is doing it for both teams.

Bob M. Tue Oct 30, 2007 08:22am

REPLY: Ref Ump Welsch...I agree. However, when there's a coach on the sideline--or both sidelines--with a watch, you're going to catch grief even if your BJ does count off the last five seconds. One coach's watch will definitely be running faster than yours; and you can bet that the other coach's watch will be running slower than yours! The best of all possible worlds is that the game clock is running when the RFP is blown and the BJ is facing the scoreboard.

Ref Ump Welsch Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Ref Ump Welsch...I agree. However, when there's a coach on the sideline--or both sidelines--with a watch, you're going to catch grief even if your BJ does count off the last five seconds. One coach's watch will definitely be running faster than yours; and you can bet that the other coach's watch will be running slower than yours! The best of all possible worlds is that the game clock is running when the RFP is blown and the BJ is facing the scoreboard.

My crew solved that problem. We tell the coaches that we have one of those ReadyRef pagers, that will time the 25 seconds and it buzzes at 20, and our BJ will count off. My white hat will "warn" coaches that we will NOT accept any bellyaching from them about the 25-seconds being inconsistent. We've actually flagged one coach for USC because he kept yelling out the time it took from RFP to snap on EVERY play by the opponents. After the flag, he was quiet.

Mike L Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:19am

Like Ref inSoCA said, we don't chop, rarely get any comment about the 25 second clock from coaches, rarely have delay flags. Perhaps in our area, this is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.
And as usual, my advise is to do what your local assoc and/or state wants you to do.

MJT Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch
The offense keeping on a watch from the whistle. Dangerous territory there, because if both teams have a coach standing on the sidelines with a watch and you flag a DOG at 24 seconds (even if you have 25 on your watch), you'll catch so much grief both teams might not have any coaches to finish the game because you'll be kicking them all out on USC's. This was what the NSAA was wanting to avoid by having the chopping on the last 5 seconds. It brings consistency because the BJ is doing it for both teams.

If there is not a play clock, and crews are told not to chop, I think it would be wise to not wait until 1 second to snap the ball. We do not chop cuz we are told to not chop. The coaches were at the same rules meeting where we were told that. I have never heard a coach complain about it cuz they know that is how it will be.

Rich Wed Oct 31, 2007 01:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJT
If there is not a play clock, and crews are told not to chop, I think it would be wise to not wait until 1 second to snap the ball. We do not chop cuz we are told to not chop. The coaches were at the same rules meeting where we were told that. I have never heard a coach complain about it cuz they know that is how it will be.

It's amazing when someone in the state decides that they know better than the NFHS. To me, the height of arrogance.

JugglingReferee Wed Oct 31, 2007 05:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN
It's amazing when someone in the state decides that they know better than the NFHS. To me, the height of arrogance.

As I understand it, it is very clear in Fed basketball that states are permitted to invoke state authority for the game as they see it. Does the same not exist in football?

Ref Ump Welsch Wed Oct 31, 2007 08:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN
It's amazing when someone in the state decides that they know better than the NFHS. To me, the height of arrogance.

And it's a little bit more amazing when that person is also the state rep to the NF football rules committee. :rolleyes:

Rich Wed Oct 31, 2007 09:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
As I understand it, it is very clear in Fed basketball that states are permitted to invoke state authority for the game as they see it. Does the same not exist in football?

Sure, but why would they simply look at a mechanic, say "that's stupid" and eliminate it. What's the benefit to having the play clock be a "secret?"

I know crews that manipulate the clock and give 28, 29, 30 seconds for a DOG and I suspect that is part of this thinking. I hate that and would rather have field level clocks everyone can see. I've told my BJ -- at 25 we throw a flag. They will adjust quickly.

Mike L Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN
It's amazing when someone in the state decides that they know better than the NFHS. To me, the height of arrogance.

What's even more amazing is some people think the NFHS knows what's best for all situations and all areas. The NFHS is a rules making organization, their official mechanics are suggested, not required.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:14pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1