Mull it over
 

PAT. A lines up in the swinging gate (which doesn't really matter much in this situation).

A2 lines up 4-yards behind the line of scrimmage as a holder. There is a kicker also lined up.

Ball is snapped to A2, who has a knee on the ground but is not in legal scrimmage kick formation (not 7 yards behind LOS).

What things do you have to watch for, what rules apply?

Also, the center, who is on the end of the line, is number 30. What rules apply and don't apply concerning the center?

no roughing the snapper protection! he is eligible!

Play is dead when he receives the snap with his knee on the ground.

Citation, please.

Holder, kicker in place, exception applies.

Since when has that been a criteria for snapper protection?

Since the dead ball exception only states that a teammate be in kicking position,
I don't believe that you can blow it dead. Read the exceptions to rule 4-2-2 carefully.

As far as I know the scrimmage kick formation only exempts the kicking team from the numbering requirements to have at least five players numbered 50-79 on the line of scrimmage and roughing the snapper... both of those explicitly
mention "scrimmage-kick formation"

This does not alter the other rules pertaining to a scrimmage kick,
dead ball exceptions for holder with knees on ground.

I believe John's talking about two separate items. There is no protection for the snapper because this is not a scrimmage kick formation. To be considered a scrimmage kick formation the holder would have to be positioned 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage.

The snapper is an eligible receiver because he's lined up on the end of the line and is wearing an eligible number.

The other point to keep in mind is that the numbering exceptions do not apply in this formation. There must be 5 players numbered 50-79 on the line.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

There are no additional or deletions to normal rules simply because the holder is {only} 4 yards behind the LS.

Holder and kicker are protected. Knee has to come up for a legal pass. Centre eligible.

That I agree with but as I read John's statement, I took it to mean that he was saying that the snapper receives no protection because he is eligible. Now that I've re-read it, I am inclined to agree with your interpretation of his post.

If John weren't grunting like the typical coach, maybe his post would've been easier to understand. ;)

Good points and I agree.

I saw this formation and decided to dig into the rule book a bit. It was fun, that's why I posted this thread.

No protection for the snapper - it is not a scrimmage kick formation.

The center is eligible by number and position.

No numbering exception, not a scrimmage kick formation.

Holder CAN receive the snap with a knee on the ground. That exception applies because there is a teammate lined up as a kicker. The exception has nothing to do with scrimmage kick formation (this is the one I almost kicked!).

another twist to this play
 

lets say the line shift over to kick the point.

now who are your elgible receivers??

is the center still elgible??

once an inelgible always inelgible??

when does inelgibility begin and end for players??

:confused: :rolleyes: :eek: :p

Yep. Got this one wrong ASSUMED that the holder must be in scrimmage kick formation. Not true.

BoBo -

Eligible receivers are the backs and those on the end of the line (if properly numbered). So, assuming the center is still on the end of the line, he is still eligible.

Eligibility begins at the snap - if eligible when the down begins, a player is eligible during the entire down.

This is not entirely true. If a player with an eligible number assumes an initial position on the line under the numbering exception (7-2-5b exc.) during a scrimmage kick he remains ineligible throughout the play regardless of whether he shifts to an eligible position or not.

the reason i bring this up is following situation.

Center A44 is the snapper.

Team A is in swinging gate formation.

Lined up to the side as follows.

85 - 75 - 66 - 62 - 75 - 88 - (then center of the field is) 44
up backs are 32 and 25

holder is 10
kicker is 3

Ready for play is blown and A44 puts his hands on the ball.

If they fake it the elgibles are 85, 32, 25, 10, 3, and 44

Now his hands are on the ball and they shift to fg/pat formation.

the line looks like this (85-75-66-44-62-75-88)

can 88 be inelgible and then elgible with the shift??

REPLY: BoBo...for your play, after the shift, #88 remains ineligible. The reason is that there are less than five numbered 50-79 on the line at the snap, so the numbering exception is in effect. Since #88 took a position initially as an interior lineman under the numbering exception, he remains ineligible for the down.

thank you for reassuring my thoughts.

now when does elgibility begin in this situation?

when the center places his hands on the ball?

i am sure we have all had this play and 88 begins as inelgible, then we have a had a bad snap and i am sure he goes out for a pass.

Honestly how many of us miss/let this go?

Explaining the rule to the coach will be lots of fun. And I am sure it will respond "we have always done it this way and it has never been flagged before"

just my two cents worth

You determine eligibility when everyone is set. The position of the snapper's hands have no bearing.

It's my job (umpire) to see that we don't miss this. The first time I see this formation I'll make a mental note of anyone who's ineligible by position. As soon as I get a chance I'm writing those numbers on my game card.

Give this comment the same credence as you do any other similar comment from a coach. You weren't at last week's game and have no way of confirming if they did get away with this.

So if ineligibility is determined by the original position, what about twin receivers at the end? Lets say the offense wants the defense to think run, so they line up with 8 on the line (with the twins both being on, one being covered) and then they shift so the inside twin goes off, and then starts a motion. Is he ineligible because he was covered originally or is he eligible because he stepped off and became a back?

But as someone pointed out here not long ago, that's only if the initial formation would have, had the ball been snapped, taken advantage of the numbering exception. Had there been 5 or more numbered 50 thru 79 on the line, that entire consideration would be irrelevant.

What's also interesting is that, as in other place kicking situations, if the ball is held by a player with one or more knees down, you have the unusual situation of having to simultaneously watch another player to determine if the ball is or becomes dead. Do you allow any "hysteresis" there if the situation starts with an ostensible kicker? That is, do you look for the instant that he moves into a position from which you judge it's no longer an ostensible kick, or do you allow a little extra time for the holder to rise off his knee(s)?

In rec.sport.football.officiating a few years ago, the question also came up as to what the defense could do to make the ball dead while a placing of the ball for a kick was still active. It seems some form of holding the runner so his progress is stopped, or getting him into some "down" position other than kneeling, would be required.

Robert

If it's not a scrimmage kick formation they can do whatever they'd like. But if it is a scrimmage kick and the player in question starts as a lineman under the numbering exception then no amount of shifts or motion can make him eligible.

If in a scrimmage kick formation (7 yards or more behind LOS), 88 can't become eligible. This applies only to scrimmage kick formation - he originally lined up as a lineman. The restriction starts after the ready for play. Once they leave the huddle and go somewhere in a scrimmage kick formation, they are stuck with that status.

In my original play (holder was 4 yards behind LOS), 88 can become eligible.

And determining whether it's a scrimmage kick formation could require watching the "kicker", even if the ostensible holder is only 4 yards back, because the other player could be in position to receive a snap and be more than 7 yards behind the NZ.

Sheesh, considering all there is about this to "mull over", maybe Fed should consider allowing numbers to "report ineligible" and abolish the formation numbering exception. Maybe even eliminate "scrimmage kick formation". A few years ago I proposed a snapper's head up vs. head down criterion as an alternative way to protect the snapper.

Robert

Robert - that's a great catch! You're absolutely right, the location of the kicker (rather than the holder) could make it a scrimmage kick formation.