First 2 Games down
 

After the first 2 games of the season last weekend, the season is under way. Here are a couple things we had that were problematic.

1. Need to stay focused on getting a new ball into play after long incompletions.
2. Need to understand the big picture. An inexpereinced wing official threw a flag for a false start, at the same time the head coach behind him was asking for a TO. The R was signalling the TO granted when the flag landed.
3. On at least 3 or 4 occassions, A's TE was crossing behind me (I'm the Umpire) obviously in a pass route, and being contacted hard by a LB before the ball is thrown. The TE was knocked to the ground on 1 of those plays. No flags by either BJ or wing officials. It's behind me and I'm not watching that, but I could tell it was happening.

Unusual events
1. Extended the 1st quarter with 2 untimed downs. Foul on the final timed down, and a foul on the untimed down.
2. I flagged A78 for BBW during the return following an interception. A78 was on his hands and knees trying to get to his feet when he lunged for and contacted a B player at the knees.
3. I had flags for ineligible downfield and IFP beyond the NZ on consecutive plays. Both of those plays went for TD's and were called back.

Regarding Number 3 on your first list. I am a wing and "if the TE is crossing" he is potentially still a blocker and I am allowing that contact to be allowed. My reasoning is that first of all--the rule allows it and secondly---if he is cross behind you after coming off the line of scrimmage--there is no way that he is at or beyond the yard line of his defender, plus at that point in a play a too much can happen to assume a "pass play".

Wings out there--any other thoughts?

Regarding No 1 on your list. In looking at the films of our games from last year, this is one place where we really over-hustled. There was one play in particular where two receivers and three defenders met on a long pass. The ball was tipped away and everyone went down in a pile. The second the play is over, the BJ and the LJ (me) turned away to get a new ball and relay it back in. We had five players down in a jumble and we are worried about getting a new ball.

After a long pass the players and officials need to get back to the line - usually by going through the middle of the other team. Make sure all of the players are clear of each other before you even think of a new ball.

NDRef,

I am a wing and a BJ. I can't assume that the TE is still a blocker just because he is in a crossing pattern. I have to see what the TE does. If he is actually blocking, then yes its legally contact. But if the ball is thrown I have a flag on TE. Now if he is not blocking and running a route, I'll take a peek at what the QB is doing. There is more to the play than just watching the TE crossing. If the LB takes down the TE and the QB was going to throw to him, I have a flag on the LB.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in high school restrictions for B don't start until the ball is thrown (unlike A where they start at the snap). Unless B is holding the TE or tackling him I've got nothing if they legally block him to the ground.

I don't recall a rule that says once somebody is obviously a receiver or 5 yards down field (a popular cry of coaches). B can chuck and legally block until the ball is thrown. And then its only OPI if the ball is thrown toward that receiver. Do I think this creates an advantage for the wise defense to bump receivers on their routes, yes, but I don't know of rule support for calling "obstruction of a route" (before a pass is thrown) in high school.

Why? You can't assume a pass play either. The rule states that if the TE (or any eligible receiver) is still a "potential" blocker the contact on him is legal. Whether he actually blocks or not is not relevant. You are basically stating that the defense must wait to be contacted first by the TE (blocked) and then, and only then, can the defense return the contact. As long as the ball is not in the air and the TE is still a "potential" blocker (he is a potential blocker because since the ball is not in the air--we still have a running play) the LB or anyone else can have contact.

Now if that TE is running a pattern and is at the same yard line or beyond of his defender, you could potentially have "illegal use of the hands" on the defender or a hold (defending on the defenders actions) since the ball has not been thrown yet.

The statement you just made is based on the TE starting out blocking at the snap of the ball. We are talking about a TE running a route across the field.

Can somebody help me with a rule reference on this potential blocker vs. running a route past the defender business?

If restrictions on B don't start until the ball is thrown how can you have anything but a legal block (assuming its not from behind - maybe that is where the past the defender piece comes from). Say that B legally blocks a wideout running a route 20 yards down field prior to the ball being thrown, I've got nothing (except a lot of explaining to the coach who thinks his receiver was illegally chucked) since B was not yet restricted from contacting A.

Am I wrong in my understanding?

Wheels,

Read also what PaulJak wrote. I\we are not talking about blocking at the snap. We are talking about TE still being a potential blocker---that has nothing to do with "running a route". You need to understand what the rules allow for National Federation. You cannot assume that a TE running across the middle is running a route--he may be looking for someone to block--therefore he is still a potential blocker to the defender in front of him (ie--the potential blocker TE is not a the same yard line or in advance of the defender). A pass play is NOT a pass play until the ball crosses the line of scrimmage. Therefore the TE is not protected from contact (other than illegal use of the hands or holding) simply because he MAY be running a route on a play that MAY be a pass play. If a LB comes up and hits him as described in the original post and supported by PaulJak--it is legal BECAUSE he is still a potential blocker and the ball has not been released and subsequently crosses the line of scrimmage.

The problem comes from 9-2-3-d "The defense shall not contact an eligible receiver who is no longer a potential blocker."

In the case play 9.2.3 Situation A it adds, " if the receiver is not attempting to block or has moved pass or in moving away, it is illegal for the defender to use hands in this matter..."

We aren't talking pass interfernce here - it would be illegal use of the hands. The question is, if a tight end is moving across the field and "is not attempting to block", can he be contacted? By the strict application of this rule, he can't. However, if he is between the linebacker and the QB does that make him a potential blocker even if he might be looking back toward the QB?

NDRef, you were saying?

Don't have my rule book at work, but I do have the case book.

On Page 62 and 63...

Blocking - Use of hands.
9.2.3 Situation A: End A1 sprints from the line and then cuts sharply
toward the middle of the field. A1 makes no attempt to block defensive back
B1. B1 pursues A1 and pushes him from the side using his open hands. Contact
is made on A1's upper arm before the pass is thrown. A1 was moving away from
B1 when the contact occurred. RULING: Illegal use of hands by B1. A defender may
legally contact an eligible receiver beyond the neutral zone before the pass is in
flight. The contact may be a block or ward off the opponent who is attempting to
block by pushing or pulling him. However, if the receiver is not attempting to block
or has gone past or is moving away, it is illegal for the defender to use hands in the
manner described. In this situation, it is clear that A1 is no longer a potential blocker on B1. ( 2-3-5a, 7-5-7 )

9.2.3 Situation C: Quarterback A1 drops back 15 yards and throws a legal forward pass intended for A2, who is 5 yards behing the neutral zone.. Before the pass reaches A2: (a) B1 tackles A2; or (b) B1 blocks A2. RULING: In (a), tackling A2 is
a foul, as it is a form of holding. Defensive players are prohibited from grasping an
opponent other than the runner. The foul in (a) occurs during a loose-ball play, and
the 10-yard penalty will be administered from the previous spot. In (b), the contact by B1 is not pass interference and, if the block itself is legal, there is no infraction.
(7-5_10)

......
My personal note about receivers on a crossing routine or driving towards a defender.
I can't read the receivers mind so I don't expect a defender to be able to read the receiver's mind either. So if there is any chance that the receiver can block a defender, then I allow that defender to make legal contact. As the case play says, that doubt is removed if the receiver is moving away from the defender.

See the whole play and rule accordingly...

Jim D. thanks for the rule reference.

(This got long winded as I kept typing, sorry)

This starts to get into a judgement decision (which is why we get paid the big bucks:) ). The key word in that is potential blocker. What does potential mean? If you are between me and the ball are you a potential blocker?

If you are running a drag route across the middle I'm still reading you as potential blocker. The defender may or may not realize that A is running a sweep and the drag route is really A moving to block downfield. A knows what play they are running, B doesn't, so B is given a higher degree of latitude for contact - until the ball is thrown.

I think that everybody on A is a potential blocker until that ball is actually thrown. After its thrown, everyone but the player who caught it starts to block again, which means they remain a potential blocker throughout the down (with the exception of when the pass is in flight - which is when B is restricted).

It may seem like I'm ignoring 9-2-3-d, but I'm not aware of potential blocker being defined and it doesn't specify a time period during the down. So if A can return to being a blocker later in the down, they are a potential blocker throughout the down.

i saw l3will's post after I had typed my reply. Thanks for posting the Cases.

The key to this case is that he was moving away from the player who made contact. If in that same case B2 comes up from the secondary and makes legal contact with the A player who is running towards B2, do you still have a foul?

A was clearly not blocking, but he also wasn't past or moving away from B2 in this case. I would think there is no foul on B2. Just because he got past B1 doesn't mean B2 can't come up and make contact.

BTW, I shouldn't leave my books in the car during work :)

Paul,

Defensive coaches are going to LOVE YOU!!!

I guess at the end of the day--we as officials have to determine when a player ceases to be a "potential blocker". Wheels, I trust your judgement for you to decide this on your own. There are numerous examples of the offense trying to "sell" a pass play in order to capitalize on a run play. Just one example is a Quarterback draw. The QB drops back, TE runs across the middle looking back--QB runs the ball. All I am saying that until I have a pass play the TE running across the middle is still a "potential" blocker--and blocking restrictions are the same for the offense and defense, so he can be hit. Unless you have illegal use of the hands and the QB now runs, what possible penalty can you have on this play based on the action of the LB just coming up and blocking the TE.

Once again the key is "potential blocker" and we must each decide that judgement on our own. However, I am not going to throw a flag on a legal hit\block by the defense before a pass is thrown.

NDRef,

As a wing guy I would have a hard time making that call. Thank Goodness we have 5 man for vasrity. That is a BJ call. It would be hard for the wing guys to pickup the TE in the middle and flanks on the outside. I'm quick, but not the quick. I can't wait for the season to start. I guess California is a little behind. But we have scrimmages this weekend and the season starts next Thursday.

Wheels,

I agree, and on our crew that call does belong to the BJ. Up here in the frequently frozen north, we've already had a couple of games--game 3 tomorrow night. Good luck on your season, and thank you for the professional level of conversation.

Thanks! same to you!

Hold on guys! I work HS and college and have been to many clinics with D1 and NFL officials and you are giving team B way to much leeway. He is a potential blocker if he is going forward, but once he makes a cut (even at an angle) he is in his route and no longer a potential blocker. He does not have to be on the same yardline as the defender. If he is running a crossing route and running parallel to the LOS, how can you say he is a potential blocker? There is no way he is and if you call it that way you are giving the defense a huge advantage and missinterpreting the rule. It is illegal use of hands until the ball is in the air and DPI if the ball is in the air and crosses the NZ.

Like I said... see the whole thing and rule accordingly.

In general, I agree with MJT... once the receiver makes a cut he probably isn't a blocker.
However, if the receiver is running directly at B2 after he makes his cut, then you have to factor that into your
ruling... was the receiver looking at B2? back towards the passer? so on and so
forth.

But he is not going to look back towards the passer till he is where is supposed to be when the ball is thrown. Thus, you cannot use that as part of your judgment.

I cannot emphasize enough how when he makes his cut, he can no longer be hit by B.

l3will,

He is running a pattern. He is running to a spot that he practiced. If B2 happens to be at the spot doesn't mean he is looking to block.

Help me understand how you would handle this. A will be running a delayed draw play. The wideout breaks from the LOS and cuts outward on what appears to be a out route designed to take a defender with him, he is contacted by B with open hands as he is moving past and away from B. Is the contact be B illegal in this instance? It was obvious that he was no longer a potential blocker by case 9-2-3-A but was a running play.

I think the main point for me is to see the whole play and understand the situation. MJT is right - I think I'm giving B too much leeway, but I'm also not going to assume that I know what A is going to do; and because I can't assume what they are going to do how can I expect B to do the same. That is what I'm struggling with.

This is why you see late flags on plays. You see things that may or may not be a foul, but it depends on few things. Here are some examples.
1. In your delayed draw play - you see the contact and know that if this ends up being a pass play you will have a flag on the ground. When it ends up being a draw play, you do not. What you probably would have on that play is the receiver making the initial contact as soon as the the DB sees the draw as if he is worth a hoot as a DB he will be sneaking a peek in the backfield.
2. Your key is the wide out and you see him blocking downfield and the QB drops back to pass. You are thinking it is going to be a screen pass, but the QB throws a quick out to the receiver who was in the slot on your wide outs side and it is definitely beyond the LOS.
3. You see illegal contact on your receiver and you glance in the backfield to see what the QB is doing. If he has just thrown a pass to the opposite field you have nothing. But, if he scans the field and later throws a pass, gets sacked, or runs, you would have a flag on the ground.
4. In college you see the ball thrown to a receiver and he is interfered with. You need to wait and throw your flag only if the pass is catchable.

These are just a few instances where you have to wait and see what happens and then decide if you put a flag on the ground, or not. What it boils down to is seeing the potential foul and sometimes needing to wait and see if you will flag it or not.

I know MJT is officiating at a much higher level than me, but what about this particular play?

A will be running a sweep to the strong side.
Strong tackle blocks the DE towards the sideline.
Fullback blocks the strong side LB.
TE should block the middle LB.

The TE runs downfield 3 steps, cuts hard inside and goes hunting for the LB.

The action that I am seing COULD still be a pass play, and the TE has made a definative cut and is running parallel to the LOS.

So it would have to be an illegal use of hands according to MJT.

Then there is the same movement for everyone, but it is a pass play...
I think I'd be giving the defense the benifit of the doubt in this case.

Again - I am in a completly different set of circumstances than MJT, and will unfortunately never get to work college ball. :-(

James

If I got it right, in this situation you'd have to wait and see if it's a run. If it is, there's no flag. If it's a pass, then you'd have, at least, illegal contact

jjrye22,

By the time the sweep is formed you will know the intent of team A players. Most of the time if it is a sweep, a couple of the linemen pulling to get out in front of the running back. If it is a screen play, there may be a slight delay but you should see block drifting in front of the receiver. A lot of times the linemen tell you what type of play is being run by their blocking.

So lets see if I've got a "proper" interpretation here.

If A is past and moving away from B any contact on A is Illegal Use of Hands. This contact can be with an open hand, a shoulder nudge or anything that "intentionally" knocks A off his route (would feet tangling would be ignored like it is in DPI/OPI).

If A and B are chicken fighting (sorry best description I can think of) right from the snap and A hasn't gotten past or away from B, that contact is legal - up until the ball is thrown toward A or A is able to get past or away from B.

Does it seem like I've got it?

Paul,

As MJT siad, you also have to take a look at the QB as well. Your flag will come late if an attempted pass is trying to reach A. If no pass is attempted, you got nothing. You have to see the whole play, the BIG picture. Your second example I would say is correct.

Some interesting rule interpretations here. I'm just wondering if I've got it straight. Once a receiver makes a "cut" or once it's appears he no longer intends to block, he cannot be touched. And this may even create a delayed flag requirement to see if a pass is actually thrown. So....

1) say a receiver breaks on a quick slant at the snap and the defender contacts him. Does this count as a "cut"?

2) is it reasonable to assume on just about any pass play, no receiver will attempt to block since their job is to get open for the pass and therefore no contact is allowed at all and delayed flags should come raining down from just about everywhere?

3) is "bump & run" coverage illegal if the receiver immediately tries to break away from the defender? After all he's both cutting and not attempting to block. Or does this count as a cut? Are we supposed to try to determine what is a cut and what is just an altered route?

Yes, these are some extreme examples geared towards a certain point, which I'm sure you can all determine where I'm coming from. Perhaps we would be better off with the NFL 5yd bump rule since what it appears some may be trying to apply is much more restrictive.

I forgot to mention in my first scenario that it a pass was thrown.

You do raise an interesting point though, and I don't think the MJT was saying that a pass must be thrown before a flag is thrown. What if B blocks all the A receivers and A wasn't able to throw a pass or A wasn't able to throw as quickly because the primary receiver was blocked and then A was sacked. You said if no pass is attempted you've got nothing, but in this case, its the illegal act that has caused no pass to be attempted and I would think we should flag the illegal contact.

I agree you've got to see the BIG picture and understand what A was trying to do. If you feel that A was going to attempt a pass then you've got to flag the contact because the contact may have been the reason the pass wasn't attempted. If you don't feel that A was going to pass, then I think you let that contact go. We've got to make a judgement on A's intentions regarding pass or run, I don't think we can strictly go off of an actual pass - although the actual pass certainly makes A's intention known.

Thanks for the input and the great discussion on this topic :)

As I keep saying... see the whole thing and rule accordingly... A1 drives 3 yards
forward then makes a cut parallel to the line of scrimmage....
a) A1 is not looking at the passer and runs into B2 who is stationary and reading the quarterback.
b) A1 is looking at the passer and runs into B2 who fends off A1 with his hands as B2 braces for the contact.
c) A1 is crossing on his pattern, B2 clearly moves toward A1 and contacts A1 from the side... A1 may or may not be looking at the QB.

In all cases, a pass is thrown towards A1... all contact happened prior to the
pass being thrown.

In a) and b), I'd probably have nothing.... but since I don't have the video
I'll leave myself an out. ;)

Without video and seeing it, in a) and b) I'd be considering OPI since A initiated contact. A knows the play and knows a pass is going to be thrown. in your a) B is stationary and reading the QB - I wouldn't allow an A player to make contact with him. A must avoid contact when running past a B player on a route, they can't just plow into him. In your b) A is again initiating contact. In both cases if a pass is thrown beyond the NZ I've got OPI on A. Eligible A's are restricted from initiating contact beyond the NZ from the snap so this to me is OPI.

PaulJak ..Good points about Offensive Pass Interference... brain too much focused on illegal use of hands.

I figured it was a brain lock on the illegal use of hands, but I had to clarify :)

If you're working tonight, good luck.

Good discussion since I got last posted 2 nts ago. Didn't get much done yesterday on the boards as I got home from school, ran a few miles, showered and headed to our game. Hope those of you that worked last night had a great game. Ours was awesome!

I'd agree with most of the responses to questions. The key to the run/pass is the QB and you need to get a peek at him after the contact if possible. Often you can tell what is happening with him periphially as you continue to watch your receiver.
In the above post, I'd probably have OPI in (A), nothing in (B) cuz A1 is looking at the QB and B didn't initiate the contact, and DPI in (C) cuz team B moved to and initiated the contact.

In all cases the contact is made prior to the pass. So in c) you don't have DPI.

In terms of reading the QB/line - not at the levels I officiate. Your lucky if the line moves at all in any direction. As wheels described - Most of the time, should see... It might very well look like a run except tha ball is thrown, or look like a pass with just the one player running through the line with a ball. I'm still leaning towards no flag if the O player is coming towards a D player and the D player steps into the contact (with no ball in the air that is).

Again - different leagues, different associations, different points of emphasise.

James