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-   -   Fed: Illegal Forward Pass? (https://forum.officiating.com/football/37828-fed-illegal-forward-pass.html)

Suudy Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:40am
Fed: Illegal Forward Pass?
 
Here's a question from the WA state clinic. It is in regards to illegal forward passes and that there cannot be roughing the passer on an illegal forward pass (i.e. the change to 2.32.11).

Team A's ball 3rd and 10 on the A 30 yard line. QB A15 crosses LOS, retreats behind the line and throws a pass. He is contacted late by B47 after releasing the ball. Which of the following statements is INCORRECT.

a. Roughing Passer
b. Personal Foul on B47
c. Penalties will offset
d. Illegal Forward Pass

The clinic says it is a. How is it not roughing the passer? As far as I can tell from the rule book, this is covered in rule 7.5, i.e.:

Quote:
7.5.1 It is a legal forward pass, if during a scrimmage down and before team possession has changed, a player of A throws the ball with both feet of the passer in or behind the neutral zone when the ball is released. Only one forward pass my be thrown during the down.
Looks good to me from the above play.

Quote:
7.5.2 An illegal forward pass is a foul. The illegal forward passes are: a) A pass after team possession has changed during the down, b) A pass from beyond the neutral zone, c) A pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible reeiver, d) A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time e) A second or subsequent forward pass thrown during a down.
Again, looks good. None of these events apply to the original play.

Thus, A15 is a passer, and the contact by B57 is roughing. Am I screwing this one up?

Bob M. Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:01am
REPLY: Certainly appears to me to be a legal forward pass, hence roughing the passer.

Forksref Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:15am
Legal pass. Therefore, illegal hit, RTP.

Blue37 Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:59pm
Perhaps the question is worded wrong. If it asked which was the correct answer, A would be the right choice.

The way the question is worded, A is the only incorrect answer.

Big2Cat Mon Aug 27, 2007 09:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy
Here's a question from the WA state clinic. It is in regards to illegal forward passes and that there cannot be roughing the passer on an illegal forward pass (i.e. the change to 2.32.11).

Team A's ball 3rd and 10 on the A 30 yard line. QB A15 crosses LOS, retreats behind the line and throws a pass. He is contacted late by B47 after releasing the ball. Which of the following statements is INCORRECT.

a. Roughing Passer
b. Personal Foul on B47
c. Penalties will offset
d. Illegal Forward Pass

The clinic says it is a. How is it not roughing the passer? As far as I can tell from the rule book, this is covered in rule 7.5, i.e.:


Looks good to me from the above play.


Again, looks good. None of these events apply to the original play.

Thus, A15 is a passer, and the contact by B57 is roughing. Am I screwing this one up?
Once he crosses the LOS, I do not think he can run back and throw a pass. That is the problem and why he is not a passer.

Ed Maeder Mon Aug 27, 2007 09:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big2Cat
Once he crosses the LOS, I do not think he can run back and throw a pass. That is the problem and why he is not a passer.
Under NFHS rules it is only illegal to throw the pass from beyond the neutral zone. So if the passer crosses the neutral zone and then returns behind the neutral zone it is legal to throw a forward pass.

oHIolj Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:03pm
Even question makers screw up once in a while... looks like roughing to me..

JugglingReferee Tue Aug 28, 2007 07:25am
Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy
Team A's ball 3rd and 10 on the A 30 yard line. QB A15 crosses LOS, retreats behind the line and throws a pass. He is contacted late by B47 after releasing the ball. Which of the following statements is INCORRECT.

a. Roughing Passer
b. Personal Foul on B47
c. Penalties will offset
d. Illegal Forward Pass
CANADIAN RULING:

Advancing beyond the LS and retreating behind the LS again does not invalidate any RTP philosophies. This is roughing the passer. 15y + AFD.

MadCityRef Tue Aug 28, 2007 09:19am
There's a kink in the enforcements when a QB beyond LOS throws an illegal forward pass and gets his clock cleaned. Off-setting penalties unless I'm missing something. (Entirely posiible :D )

Suudy Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadCityRef
There's a kink in the enforcements when a QB beyond LOS throws an illegal forward pass and gets his clock cleaned. Off-setting penalties unless I'm missing something. (Entirely posiible :D )
Which is the reason the question was certainly mis-worded. Assuming the QB was beyond the LOS, then we can examine each case:

a. Roughing Passer

Can't be this, because if the QB is beyond the LOS, he is not a passer.

b. Personal Foul on B47

Could be this, depending upon how late the contact was, the type of contact, etc.

c. Penalties will offset

Could be this, if there was a personal foul on B47.

d. Illegal Forward Pass

Certainly this if the QB is beyond the LOS.

Re-wording the question to just say "CORRECT" instead of "INCORRECT" only allows a to be the correct answer.

GarthB Tue Aug 28, 2007 03:17pm
Here's an explanation from a WOA clinician:

"The person who wrote the question applied a college rule in error and no one caught it. In college it is an illegal forward pass if the ball carrier goes beyond the neutral zone and then retreats back and throws a forward pass. In high school that is not the case. "

Suudy Tue Aug 28, 2007 03:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Here's an explanation from a WOA clinician:

"The person who wrote the question applied a college rule in error and no one caught it. In college it is an illegal forward pass if the ball carrier goes beyond the neutral zone and then retreats back and throws a forward pass. In high school that is not the case. "
I asked at our association meeting, and none of them had any explanation. I don't know if any contacted the WOA. I'm glad the WOA wasn't suggesting some change to the rules.

And since the clinic forces you to repeat each section until you 100% on the quizzes, I had to repeat that section 3 times before I finally got it "right".

GarthB Tue Aug 28, 2007 03:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy
I asked at our association meeting, and none of them had any explanation. I don't know if any contacted the WOA. I'm glad the WOA wasn't suggesting some change to the rules.

And since the clinic forces you to repeat each section until you 100% on the quizzes, I had to repeat that section 3 times before I finally got it "right".
Since the preceeding video went on at length about how a player was not a passer on an illegal pass and was afforded no protection, I had a clue to what they were looking for and didn't have to answer it multiple times.

Suudy Tue Aug 28, 2007 03:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Since the preceeding video went on at length about how a player was not a passer on an illegal pass and was afforded no protection, I had a clue to what they were looking for and didn't have to answer it multiple times.
For me it was: 1) Hmm, I must have clicked the wrong one, 2) No, I clicked the right one, why is it wrong? 3) Ok, I think I know what they are getting at.

Then the curiosity of why it was wrong.

GarthB Tue Aug 28, 2007 04:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy
For me it was: 1) Hmm, I must have clicked the wrong one, 2) No, I clicked the right one, why is it wrong? 3) Ok, I think I know what they are getting at.

Then the curiosity of why it was wrong.
WOA is correcting the question today. They will be removing the reference to "retreats behind the LOS" thus the pass will be an illegal pass.


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