Snap is part of Loose Ball Play???
 

I can see where a Long Snap would be considered a backward pass and part of a Loose Ball Play, but not the normal snap from Center to QB. The ball is never loose!!! It may be considered to be a "Handed ball" but according to "Football Fundamentals" part VII PASSES, 3; "A handed ball is not a pass."

I find nothing in the book that says a snap is considered a backward pass.

Help me out!

JimO.

Rule 2-40, the definition of a snap says "the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from its position on the ground." So, the normal snap would be the handing and a shotgun snap would be the passing.

Agreed, after a quick look I can't find anything in Fed Rules about it. NCAA is a little different,

NCAA Rule 2-23-c
c. If, during any backward motion of a legal snap, the ball slips from the snapper's hand, it becomes a backward pass and is in play.

In Europe, we use NCAA, but on the occasional visit to the USA I do get to work some Fed ball and have to bone up on my out-of-date Fed Rules knowledge. Is there any practical difference between how I would cover a fumble that is loose on the ground and a backward pass that is loose on the ground?

2007 nfhs rules by topics page 95. A snap is a backward pass.

Question #13 on the NFHS test.... "The snap is considered to be a backward pass and part of a loose-ball play."

True or False???

In the NFHS rule book I finally found the answer, after looking all afternoon. Rule 10-3-1 "... A lose-ball play is action during: c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble......"

This doesn't clarify if it's refering to a "long snap" or simply a regular snap, so I'm assuming that Question #13 is true.

JimO.

Andy and Oz... read my post above. The definition of a snap says it can be passing or handing.
Now, it is obvious that a shotgun snap is the "pass" and if a regular "QB under the center" snap is not the "handing," what is?
Let's look at some definitions.
2-40, A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from its position on the ground.
2-31-1, Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a pass, the ball travels in flight.
2-19-1, Handing the ball is transferring player possession from one player to a teammate in such a way that the ball is still in contact with the first player when it is touched by the teammate. Handing the ball is not a pass. Loss of player possession by unsuccessful execution of attempted handing is a fumble.

So, in a QB under the center snap, the ball is not thrown, but handed, so in that type of snap you do not have a BWPass.

As stated above it is different in NCAA in that they consider the loss of control of a hand to hand snap a BWP.

The snap is considered to be a backward pass and part of a loose-ball play.

If you want to get the question right, you'd better answer TRUE.

And thus, the part I and part II tests have questions missed when you get them right, and you get some right when you really missed them! :eek:

Sorry MJT but the NFHS doesn't agree with you.

NFHS doesn't agree with itself in many cases! I'm with MJT on this one.

The test answer does not agree with me, but I am correct in my definitions and what they mean. They are right out of the book, and indisputable. Here they are again and they are pretty clear when you consider all three. Everyone who has taken the part I or part II tests know they are worded in a way that some of them can be proven to be T or F.

2-40, A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from its position on the ground.
2-31-1, Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a pass, the ball travels in flight.
2-19-1, Handing the ball is transferring player possession from one player to a teammate in such a way that the ball is still in contact with the first player when it is touched by the teammate. Handing the ball is not a pass. Loss of player possession by unsuccessful execution of attempted handing is a fumble.

Agreed MJT. Regardless of the answer key, we can't go (totally) wrong by using rule references and especially Rule 2!

MJT - you might want to continue looking. I don't have my books with me, but I'm sure there is a statement in the rule book that states that a snap is considered a backward pass. Maybe under Fundamental Statements?

As a matter of fact the Fundamentals state in VII 3. "A handed ball is not a pass."

And, since you've been taking the blasted things for a while now, you know as well as I do that it's not exactly news. :(

Is there any practical significance to this distinction? If the ball is being snapped hand-to-hand, and is transferred successfully, is the point that some foul may occur during the snap (not much opp'ty because the snap must be "quick") such that you'd have to distinguish between enforcement spots?

At one time NFL rules (which treat "pass" differently) defined the snap as a backward pass that puts the ball in play, and defined "pass" as being done by a player in possession of a live ball -- leading to the absurdity that the ball would have to be live before it could be made live.

Robert

I knew it was in there somewhere!!!

Page 77, Football Penalty

A loose-ball play is action during:

"3. A backward pass (including the snap)......."

Of course, that is also in the rules:

Page 36, Rule 2-33-1: A loose ball play is action during:
c. A backward pass (including the snap).......

I think the Federation puts in questions like that to make us dig into the rule book and find all the little nuances - that's what makes discussions like this so much fun. Though it would be nice if they got the answer correct themselves. :rolleyes:

We've all been agreeing that it can be a pass, in shotgun formation, my point is that it is not ALWAYS a pass. If it is a hand to hand snap, it is handed and not passed, and thus a piss poor question!

I think the whole point of this discussion, the test question, and the rule is for penalty enforcement. Why else would you consider whether the play is a loose-ball play or not???

I notice that rule 10-4-2 says; The basic spot is the previous spot:
a. For a foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap...... (ie. Loose-ball play)

The snap is classified right along with other loose-ball plays. Finally, I've found a rule that actually makes sense!!!!

JimO.

MJT, I didn't say you were wrong or that your argument didn't make sense. I said the NFHS doesn't agree with you.

It says a backwards pass which includes the snap is part of a loose ball play. So whether we like it or not, or whether we can point to other definitions that are contradictory, the snap is part of a loose ball play.

In studying the other day just a phrase out of the Redding Study Guide. "Except when the ball is handed directly to the quarterback, a snap is a backward pass." It seems some of us aren't the only ones to feel this way.

The last time I checked, Rogers and George weren't the NFHS. :)

2-33-1 A loose-ball play is action during:
c. A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.
10.4.2 Situation B
When any foul occurs during a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap) or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone...even if several of these actions happen during the same down...the basic spot remains the same, the previous spot which is the spot of the snap or free kick.