Safety on a try
 

Question:
How does Team A score a safety on a try? If any of you have any experience with such scenario, please give details.

I have not seen this occur, but Team A can score a safety (1 point!) on a try in the following manner:

[NFHS rules]
Try @ B3. A runs a sweep, but is hit and fumbles near the goal line. The ball is rolling away from the goal line when a B player, diving to get the ball, muffs it back, and it hits the pylon. (Or goes into the EZ and is recovered by B, or goes into and out of the EZ, etc.)

On a normal play, this is a safety - B has forced the ball into his own endzone and it is dead there. On a try, it's STILL a safety, but A only scores 1 point, and A is still kicking off next.*

Under NCAA rules, the muff isn't a new force - it would have to be a bat. I just didn't want to introduce a foul into the play.

* - Yes, I know B could theoretically decide to kickoff. No need to confuse the issue. :P

REPLY: It all revolves aroound an understanding of "force." PLAY: Team A attempts a sweep on the try. A11 fumbles at B's 4. The ball is at rest at B's 3 when B22 muffs it and it rebounds into B's endzone. There, it is recovered by a prone B33. RULING: Since the force which put the ball into B's endzone was B22's muff, the result of the play is a safety. Award A 1 point.

I think you can still have the same without a bat in NCAA, but don't have my books with me. I think in a bowl game 2-3 years ago that "Blue" worked, they had it happen. Blue and his crew nailed it and Blue explained it on the field mic for all to understand. Do some of you remember that?

REPLY: In NCAA rules, a muff can create a new impetus (force) if the ball is at rest.

Anyone ever seen this happen in a game?

Bob, wasn't there a bowl game a few years back where it happened and Castleberry was the R? I recall discussion on this board, or maybe McGriff's about it.

Did some Googling and found it.
Friday, November 26, 2004 Texas vs Texas A&M
Cooper Castleberry was the R. Here is the game report. http://mackbrown-texasfootball.com/p...004/GAME11.HTM
Here is a blog about it. http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2...that_long.html

Here is an little on how it happened.
Texas holder Matt Nordgren dropped the snap, Dusty Mangum kicked the ball into the line and it rolled away just shy of the goal line. In the ensuing scramble for the football, officials ruled that A&M had gained possession of the ball then fumbled it into the end zone.

A&M safety Jaxson Appel recovered the fumble just before several Texas defenders pounced on him.

Game officials conferred for about a minute before ruling that the Longhorns would get a point for downing Appel in the end zone. The mostly orange-clad crowd of 83,891 exploded into cheers once the scoreboard recorded the point, tying the game at 13-all.

Interesting rule. So it is possible to have a score of 1-0 in game. :)

I thought that was only possible in Canada, with our Rouge.

Did you know that in the CFL, it is possible for B to intercept (or recover a fumble) an A convert attempt and run it back for a 2-point touchdown?

Not 1 - 0 but it could be 1-6. The 1 point safety would occur on the try after the team scores a 6 pt TD.

Doh! Stoopid me.

No team can only have scored 1 point. The only way in NF for a team to score 1 point is on a try and the defense can not score. In the play in question the touchdown-scoring team tackled the other team for a safety. So the score went from 6-13 to 12-13 to 13-13.

That is except for a forfeit, official score is 1-0 unless the game was started and the team that forfeited was trailing at the time, then the score stands.

The only problem on the Texas/TAM play was that it was an illegal kick and Texas should not been allowed to score due to the foul.

Actually, this would be more unusual than the A&M/Tex play since it would require a safety in the OTHER end zone -- 97+ yards away. It would take quite an imagination to figure out how, other than intentionally, the offense would find themselves in their own end zone.

If the 1 point safety is going to occur, it will almost certainly do so as in the A&M game.

May I have a rule reference or case book reference on this particuliar play please? Thank you.

NCAA:
Team A scores a TD and is lined up for the Try. The kick is blocked and recovered and advanced by Team B 90 yards where a Team A player strips the ball and recovers the ball on the bounce. He then tries to avoid the B player and runs into his own end zone where he is tackled. Ruling: 1 pt. Safety for B. :D

I assume this reply was for NFHS. A few years ago NCAA had an option to where the Team that was scored upon could choose who next kicked off but that option was removed.

REPLY: A similar (but not exact) Federation case play is 8.3.3. It incorporates the concept of a new force by B where the ball becomes dead in B's endzone with B in possession.

Like I said, quite an imagination.

I'll tell you what is more likely to occur: (NCAA) the try is blocked (or fumbled/intercepted) and run back and fumbled from the field of play into the end zone and out.

Mechanic question: do you give the touchback signal or just the no good (incomplete) signal? It is, after all, both.

I say you give the "no good" signal as it really isn't a touchback for any practical purpose in the game. The try failed and thus we move on to the kickoff. We don't go straight to the 20 for the next scrimmage play.

REPLY: That rule still exists in Fed, but I've never seen it exercised. Actually, one official in the area used to ask whether the scored-upon team wanted to kickoff or receive after the try...got some mighty strange looks I've heard.

If a team is trying to come back and is pretty good at picking up onside kicks, the scored upon team MAY feel better about their chances by kicking off -- especially if they have a kicker that can get it in or out of the end zone and there's only time for one or two plays.

history notes
 

Go back far enough and it wasn't uncommon to choose to kick off. I did see that in a CFL game televised to the USA during an NFL strike, when a team with a considerable lead had already been burned once via the onside kickoff and so chose to kick off themselves as a preventative. Of course that's when they were still kicking off from the 45. The onside kickoff is more of an attacking threat in Canadian than American football for several reasons, but moving the line for the kickoff back to the 35 weighed heavily against that. AFAIK the option is also there for the team that scores a safety touch to kick off from their own 35, or at least it was for some time in both CFL & amateur.

The original rule was as in soccer -- you get scored against, you kick off. That's when the kickoff was from midfield and kicking off was more advantageous than now. In the 1880s the kickoff could simply be tapped & picked up by the kicking team, although they changed that well before the century turned. The option to receive wasn't introduced until the USAn field was shortened and the kickoff moved to the 40.

Rugby Union just a few years ago introduced the option to have the other team kick off after they score, via the variant known as Hong Kong Rules for the Hong Kong 7-a-side tournament. Seems to be the standard way to play 7s now.

It wasn't advertised, but the NFL ca. 1980 abolished the option to kick off after having a TD scored against you, but kept the option to kick off after a FG against for several years. Don't ask me why.

At times in USAn & Canadian football (much later in Canadian) the team that had a safety scored against them had a choice of free kick or scrimmaging a new series, same spot either choice. A touchback once conferred the same choice in American football.

Robert

A few years back in a first week freshman game I had a first year at L ask the visitors coach after a score if he wanted to kick or receive. The coach looked at him and said he'd like the ball. After the 2nd & 3rd score against his team the L asked the same question. The third time the coach asked why he was asking him that. The L said it's in the rule book. The coach and I knew each other over the years and he asked me why this new guy was asking him the same question. I told him it was in the rules but we never ask the question. I told the L not to ask anymore. Good thing as the final score was 52-0!

This may be my lack of knowledge of college rules, but isn't a blocked try dead once it hits the ground or is recovered by R team?

Nope, NCAA is one level where the try is live. NF and the NFL both have the ball dead in the situation you described.

Thanks MJT
I got a few other rule doubts but I'll bother latter on in topics that may be related to my questions.
Really great to have found a forum that discusses football rules. It will be really helpfull to me, even knowing that where I officiate (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil) we play under a modified NFL rule.

Welcome aboard!
Two other boards are http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...?ubb=forum;f=9 which is NF rules, and http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php#1 in which you can get NF or NCAA rules.