Even though the touching in the end zone may not be "FIRST TOUCHING" per rule 2-12, K's contact with the ball in the endzone still meets the definition of "touching" in rule 2-43 and is done prior to R's touching the ball. So if K touches the ball before R, R's touching is ignored (6-1-5) and the ball would then belong to R at the 6.

I agree with Warren, once K picks up the ball in the endzone, the ball becomes dead and it would be a saftey per 6-1-5.

REPLY: Why would R's touching be ignored? R was neither blocked into the ball nor was the ball muffed or batted into him. He just went after a loose ball and muffed it. He can't be absolved of that touch.

I think so. A touched their own kick in their own EZ; B should be allowed to take possession at that spot - all I'm doing is not making them go through the farce of snapping the ball five yards away from the end line, when all we'd do is blow the whistle for the score as soon as they snapped it.

I'm not saying my solution is definitively right - as nearly as I can tell, there isn't a right answer for this play. Jim and Kirby said they'd go with B 1/10 @ A6, and I'm certainly not going to criticize. golfdesigner and kentref said they thought A 1/10 @ A6 was correct - I feel that's a really lousy break for R, but of the options discussed, it's the easiest to justify by the rules.

R's touching is "ignored" in that it has no effect on the play. K can only recover the ball before it goes beyond R's fee kick line if it is touched first by any receiver. Since K already had touched the ball in the endzone, R's touching is not first and therefore, doesn't have any consequences. K is not entitled to retain the ball.

REPLY: OK...now I see what you're saying. You're looking at the sentence that says, "The kickers may recover the ball before it goes beyond R's free kick line if it is touched first by any receiver." I read the use of the word "first" here to mean "prior to" rather "before any touching by K." So I don't necessarily agree, but I have no idea what we should do with this.

That has been my point all along. I guess I was not succinct enough. Better discussion about it on the NF board. http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...c;f=9;t=002487

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

[Assumption] A safety was scored, and the team kicking off committed a dead ball foul after the score and before the KO. In our game, A's KO is from the 35, and the 20 after a DBPF.[/Assumption]

There are two fouls on the play:

1. A1 touching the ball is a flag for touching the ball before it went 10 yards. 5-2-3, option 1.
2. A3 recovering is also a flag for the recovery after illegal touching. 5-2-3, option 2.

Penalties:

1. Back 5 yards and re-kick, or give A the ball, 1D/10 @ A-6.
2. Back 5 yards and re-kick, or give A the ball, 1D/10 @ A-6, or B 1D/G @ A-6.

B will decline the illegal touching and accept the recovery after the illegal touching.

Thanks BobM for an excellent, thought-provoking thread!

I can see MJT's point about 6-1-6 and it just seems that the Fed could fix the mess by removing the "in the field of play" phrase in the "first touching" definition. It would also then follow that a first touching by K in their own end zone could result in a TD for R unless the Fed chose to define that situation as a safety and, IMO, that would be a more appropriate ruling. It also would then be more consistent with 6-1-5 where the ball becomes dead once a kicker recovers a free kick.

I posed a variation to the initial question - where K, instead of muffing the ball out of the end zone, picks up the ball and punts it again - from the end zone. In a scrimmage kick situation this (2nd punt) is clearly covered by existing caseplay rulings. In a free kick situation there appears to be no prohibition against a second kick. However, it's likely that one/more K players will be beyond K's original free kick line at the time of the 2nd punt. If that is the case would you then blow the play dead (i.e. would you have a dead ball encroachment foul on K - even though the ball is live)?

Kentref, I'm not an official of any level in the US and I don't really know all the different rules there.
But from your second punt description all I could think of was this:

you should ignore a inadverted touching of a free kicked ball from K before it travels 10 yeards.
That's not the case in this second punt situation. For a punt to happen, someone on the K team must grant possession of the ball. And while you ignore an inadverted touch of a ball, you rule a foul for recovering a free kick before it travels 10 yards if no R team player has touched it before.

So in this second punt scenario I'd rule foul in the EZ and safety for R team.

There is most definitely a prohibition against a second kick during a free kick. For there to be a legal kick the ball must be controlled by either the kicker or holder. On a free kick, the ball becomes dead when K possesses it. Thus the ball is dead prior to any second free kick. If R possessed the ball first and then fumbled it, K may then attempt a free kick but in that situation it is obviously an illegal kick unless the holder had his knee on the ground.

So let's just say there will never be two free kicks in one play.

You cannot have a DB encroachment foul after the ball has become live. You cannot have an encroachment at all after the ball is live, by definition.

Where are you finding a case play concerning a second free or scrimmage kick attempted, except for a return kick?

Warren, why does the ball have to be dead for a free kick? I'm not saying it is not normally, but I don't see where it says it is? My problem with this play, and why it is an IK, is that if a punt is used for a FK following a safety, it must be kicked within one step behind K's FKLine.

In this second free kick play, K started the play with a free kick. Therefore, any time after that when K regains possession, the ball will become dead immediately (6-1-5) - therefore, no second free kick would be possible. In this case, it would be a saftey since K's kick supplied the force (8-5-3).

Finally, if K dropped the ball and messed up the free kick and lost possession without kicking it origionally, he still couldn't kick it out of the endzone. Once designated, K must free kick from a specific yard line (6-1-2).

DUH! Good catch Jim!!

This is an amazing posting. It is making me think about how I, as a white hat would announce to a crowd and explain to a coach what was going on. But, I would like to go back to MJT's last posting about the DB encroachment being taken off the board once the play was started. How about this one:
Since the crew let a play get off that (clearly?) shouldn't have, a rule was misapplied...so put the time back on the clock---ignore the play that resulted and restart the way it should have. That ofcourse if the flag is on the field. Thoughts???