Couple of questions
 

Last night in our rules meeting, we came up with a couple that has everybody divided.

1. On a punt, K11 has both feet in R's EZ and downs the ball,(the ball never breaks the plane,) at the 1 foot line. Touchback or down at the 1 foot line?

2. On a Kick, the ball touches the pylon. Out of bounds or a touchback?

We searched the rules and couldn;t find a rule to back up either question.

Thanks for your help

#1 is easy and very clear.

Rule 4-2-2d: The ball becomes dead when any legal free kick or scrimmage kick which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded scoring attempt, breaks the plane of R's goal line.
Rule 4-2-2f: The ball becomes dead when the kickers catch or recover any free kick anywhere and when the kickers catch or recover a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone.
Rule 6-3-1a: It is a touchback if any free kick or scrimmage kick which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded three point field goal attempt, breaks the plane of R's goal line.

It is irrelevant where K's feet are when he gains possession of the ball. The ball is dead where he gained possession. 1st and goal inside the 1 for R (since placing the nose of the ball at the 1 would put the back of the ball on the goal line, you move the ball forward slightly so it's not in the end zone).

The second one could be a little trickier because there are several rules at play.

Rule 1-2-4: ....When properly placed, the goal line pylon is out of bounds at the intersection of the sideline and the goal line extended.
Rule 2-28-1: A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than player or game official, who is on our outside the sideline or end line.
Rule 2-28-3: A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or game official, who is out of bounds.
Rule 4-3-1: When a loose ball goes out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the har line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline.

If you use these rules, you could infer that if the ball hit the FRONT of the pylon, it had to cross the sideline before it was technically out of bounds so the inbounds spot would be at that point. If the ball hit the INSIDE of the pylon, it is just now crossing the sideline and since the pylon is lined up with the goal line, it would be a touchback (you could construct similar situations using the outside, back and top of the pylon). So it could be interpreted that it depends on which side of the pylon the ball hits.

Then if you read Rule 4-3-2, it clears the situation pretty well.

"...If the ball touches a pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line."

So in your situation #2, it's a touchback.

[I posted this on the NFHS board also, so some may have already seen it.]

REPLY: bisonlj hit the nail on the head as to why this play confuses people--simply they try to read too much into it. The acual governing rule is NF 4-3-2 which in part says, "If the ball touches a pylon, it is out-of-bounds behind the goal line." The key words "...behind the goal line" are enough to suggest that the Fed wants us to rule that the ball must have crossed the goal line prior to striking the pylon. That's sufficient to rule this play a touchback.

Remember that the pylon is just an artifical means of identifying the intersection of the goal line and sideline. The actual intersection has no real dimension...it's just a vertical line, just as the goal line and sidelines have no dimension either. We choose to make them 4" wide. But you have to give some dimension to the pylon so that we can see it! The rulesmakers decided that it should be 4" x 4". The fact that a 4" front exists does cause folks to overthink the ruling: Did it strike the front? Did it strike the inside face? Did the ball hit the front inside corner? It doesn't matter. For consistency,the Fed wants any ball that strikes the pylon to be deemed as having crossed the goal line and then gone out of bounds.

I actually think a better placement for the pylon would be on the goal line with its ouside face lining up on the inside edge of the sideline. In other words, have it be completely inbounds. Then no one would ever be confused again about a ball striking a pylon--loose or in player possession.

Question 1- You can use some common sense on putting the ball on the 1 foot line. If it's a high school game and the team receiving the ball is behind by 30; maybe you should put it on the 20 first and ten.

Question 2- Bob has a great idea about putting the pylon completely inbounds, I have always called it a touch-back when it hit the pylon. I double check where it is when I line up on a kick-off and fix it if need be to make sure it's out of bounds.

Canadian Ruling
 

I don't mean to nit-pick, but just where are you placing the Pylon??

FR19 of the NCAA book (viewable online at the NCAA site) has the pylon placement illustrated that is 100% applicable for all rule codes. Since I don't see a way to link to that image so I can post that illustration, please look at it and tell me that is where you are placing the pylon.

That's the proper and only place it should be placed. If that's what you call "out of bounds" then OK, I agree. The proper placement would be at the inside intersections of the sidelines and goal lines.

Here's a link to the book: http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf

That is where I'm placing the pylon. Are you saying you think the pylon is in-bounds? I'm having a hard time understanding your comments.

REPLY: Tom...I think everybody agrees where the rules call for it to be placed, i.e. so that it is completely out of bounds where the inside front corner of the pylon corresponds to the actual intersection of the goal line and sideline--just like the picture in the NCAA rule book. But this causes confusion because people feel that if the ball strikes the pylon anywhere outside that corner, then it must have crossed the sideline prior to that and been OOB somwhere short of the goal line. I know that's not what the rule says, but people think that way.

I was suggesting a change such that the pylon be placed completely inbounds so that its outside edge corresponds to the inside edge of the sideline. That way there would be no confusion whatsoever that if the ball hit the pylon-whether loose or in player possession, then it had to cross the goal line inbounds. I can't think of any downsides to that other than the possibility of a player tripping over it.

Any other USAn rules than NFL's (or codes based on NFL's), the ball is dead when and where possessed by K11, foot position immaterial. NFL, touchback.

NFL used to have in its rule book a provision that said in case of doubt as to whether the ball was "in touch" (i.e. in goal) on such a play where K was touching the ground in the end zone, that it would be ruled a touchback. However, their officials weren't calling it that way; rather, they were invoking it even in cases where it was absolutely clear the ball was not in the end zone. Eventually NFL codified it as such.

NFL's rules concerning similar kick play situations are sui generis. For one thing, they're the only ones that rule on the goal line rather than the plane.

If it were not a touchback, where would you spot the ball? Would you really spot it so that its hindmost point from K's perspective became its foremost point from R's perspective?

All of USAn, Canadian, and rugby football are in agreement on this: out of bounds in end zone/goal; in rugby, touch-in-goal. Only soccer's the odd one out, where the ball can hit the corner flag stick and stay in play.

Robert

Like the "fair pole" in baseball?
That, and it gets in the way of other classes of loose ball entering or leaving the end zone. So I say leave it where it is, the rule's simple enough. Maybe you'd modify it in practice when a field doesn't have regulation pylons, and construction cones are used instead.

What I'd like to see is in rugby not killing the ball if the ballcarrier touches the flag stick with anything other than a foot. Too many tries voided (and often a difficult call to see if the ball was touched down first) because of someone's brushing a shoulder against a corner flag stick (and those flexible sticks they use now can bend inward quite a ways) while diving in.

Robert

Yeah, but #2 is OB in goal, right?

REPLY: That's a good point. A fumble rolling into the pylon would still be live but could be 'deflected' by a pylon that's located inbounds and affect the play.

Of course, in soccer, boundary lines are treated differently - unless the ball completely crosses the touchline, it's still in play.

Correct so far.
First off - you should never move the ball in either direction. if the ball was touching the goal line, this was a TB - if not, leave it where it was touched - no need to nudge it out of the end zone since it was not there in the first place. Second... why are you forcing R to go 99 yards for a first down. 1st and 10. Not sure why you'd say 1st and goal unless you have the whole thing upside down.

What he meant (I think) was that if the ball is parallel to the GL and not touching the GL then the ball is down there. But if you go to spot the ball and turn it perpendicular to the GL and it then intersects the GL, then you have to scoot it forward some so it isn't touching the GL.

Correct...thanks for correcting me. It was a moment of weakness and I'm out of practice. Good reason to stay on these boards to stay sharp!

Sorry for a late reply, I've been busy doing other things..

All we really need are some better words in the rule book, case book and a few good illustrations to describe what happens when a ball, loose or in player possession passes to the inside of the pylon, over the top of the pylon or to the outside of the pylon.

We have some words today, but they still seems to bring up questions and cause unnecessary confusion of what to rule.

Placement of a pylon fully inbounds would cause more trouble as I see it if a loose ball would to hit it and deflect into the EZ. We have some pylons up here that while made of rubber, would take 100 MPH winds to knock them over. So a loose ball striking it could easily be kept inbounds.

I just don't see why this is causing so much grief.

Say, have you been watching those two topics over on the NFHS forum? The one called "another goal line question" and "receiving a kick right at the line". Why is there so much confusion over the results of those plays? What are our books missing in definitions and rules that make these plays so difficult to rule on. I just don't see it, but from the responses, confusion reigns.

Well, I started the second one - doesn't seem to be too much confusion, other than when I first replied to a play in a different thread, I'd forgotten about the momentum exception.

As for the other thread, most of the argument is over what constitutes a catch. The definition is there, but it's really very difficult to pin down exactly what should and should not be a catch without a page-and-a-half of text. The NCAA has some very solid direction about what they want to be a catch, but it's not really in the book. The NFHS has no such top-down guidance, certainly not with the large number of film clips needed to really make it crystal clear.

I think in touch actually.

Sorry for joining this discussion so late - been busy. These are easy:

1 - In NFHS, the location of the feet don't matter anymore. It is only the location of the ball. For reference (for more experienced officials who may disagree), this changed with the rule change on the kick becoming dead as soon as it crosses the plane of the goalline (the old rule read "touches anything in the end zone," and that wording was deleted, thus deleting the ruling concerning location of the player).

2 - If the ball touches a properly placed pylon, it is ALWAYS:
1) In the end zone; and
2) (if it matters) out of bounds

As the rule states, the pylon is "out of bounds in the end zone." The pylon is not confusing - it is your friend because it gives you answers immediately.

If a kick touches the pylon - it is a touchback. No what-ifs or buts.
If the ball in player control touches the pylon, the ball is in the end zone (usually a touchdown).
If a loose ball (not a kick) touches a pylon - it is BOTH in the end zone AND out of bounds. In most cases, that means its a touchback and a turnover (Offense doing in for a touchdown, fumbles from the field of play, into and out of the end zone).