Monday Night football
 

wow, al michaels is really showing a disdain for the officials

he's all over the crew, I don't think they've been too bad. how about you?

Are you talking about the 5 yard and 3 inch thing they just talked about early in the 4th qtr? I didn't see it, but they just explained it and it sounds like they did not understand it and were probably critical of it. Interesting how he would not disclose how they found out about the tape at the 5 yard mark on the chain. I know they do confer about ruling with the supervisors at the game and the replay guys. I don't know why he wouldn't just say that is how they found out, as they have said that before in other games.

I like it when they found out that they were wrong, but they kind of sidestep the fact that they were wrong or didn't know what they were talking about.

But you have to admit, the R looked pretty bad on that drive on a couple of penalties just by seeming unsure of all the facts when he was announcing the foul to the crowd

Monday
 

That game was on Sunday night.

But speaking of Monday. I didn't watch much of the game, but I did caught the end of the first half, when St Louis caught a pass, was untouched and fell out of bounds and they kept the clock running. I know the NFL has some silly rules on how you go out of bounds,ect. But they need to simplifies some of this stuff. If a guy goes out of bounds, he's out of bounds stop the clock.TMO

[QUOTE=MJT]Are you talking about the 5 yard and 3 inch thing they just talked about early in the 4th qtr? I didn't see it, but they just explained it and it sounds like they did not understand it and were probably critical of it. Interesting how he would not disclose how they found out about the tape at the 5 yard mark on the chain. I know they do confer about ruling with the supervisors at the game and the replay guys. I don't know why he wouldn't just say that is how they found out, as they have said that before in other games.

MJT= I was at the game. What was this all about?

Was the comment about the tape on the chain, etc. from the Monday night game or the Sunday night game? And what was the story? I do the down box for the Rams so I'm really curious, if it was the Monday night game, what was said?

Jim, the title of this thread should have been Sunday Night football. During the Sunday night game there was a situation where they had to check to see where the down box was in relation two the five yard mark. It was 3 inches short, so the R announced they'd be 3 inches short of a first down. Al Michaels then started in on how the R would know they were 3 inches short without meausuring. Al had no clue on how that is determined.

Thanks. Imaging Al Michaels being ignorant of officiating techniques.

On every play that's close I will tell the HL "long five" or "short five". It did come into play once last night.

I think that was an mistake by the crew. I am talking to an NFL official I know later this week I think and plan on asking him about it.

If it's that close, don't you still have to measure? How do you know the down box is correctly placed? I think Al Michaels had a good question.

How do you know the ball is correctly placed after marching 5 yards? The tape on the chain is pretty much a standard mechanic at all levels. If the down box guy isn't on the ball then the HL has to keep him in line.

Interestingly enough, this is where the phrases "on the ball" and "keep him in line" originated. ;)

With the fields in the NFL marked as well as they are, it's pretty easy to keep the box lined up on the ball correctly. If the nose of the ball in not on the line, either the butt of the ball in on the line or the ball is half way between the lines, etc. so there is always a refernce point. Then all you do is look down at the chain as see if it's a long five or a short five.

Actually the HL has the worst view because he's between the box and the ball so he can't see it that well. NFL linesmen get out of the way and leave it to the box man to line it up correctly.

If we can trust the box-man to correctly line up the ball in the middle of the field with the box, then why do we ever measure for a first down? Can't we trust the referee to correctly determine where the line to gain marker is in relation to the same ball?

We bring the chain out to determine if the line to gain is reached, why don't we bring it out to see if the ball is in front of or behind the tape? The same thing is at stake - a new series.

No marching according to NFHS
 

I am digressing from the original topic (not nit-picking), but marching off penalties is frowned upon at the highschool level. Something I have struggled with on poorly marked High school fieldss. I have been told walking off penalties is not mechanically correct. Any advice from any veteran middle men?

J

You don't want to look like a storm trooper goose stepping down the field when you mark off a penalty. It's better to see where the spot is and just move it back 5 or 10 or 15 yards. For example, if the ball is at the 24, you know it has to end up on the 19 so start at the 24, pick up the ball and walk to the 19 and place it there. If it's at the 24 1/2 then it goes to the 19 1/2, etc.

I agree...however
 

Are there any sound techniques for a spot that begins a football length and three inches behind the 43yl (going out), and you're marking off a 15-yarder? I have struggled with this, feeling rushed to keep the game moving, and, as I stated, these high school fields aren't always marked well. NFHS says to walk and point to major yard lines.

Thanks for the input

Another option is to use a reverse measurement to determine if the ball will be beyond the line. Just grab the chain at a yard line and bring it onto the field. Then depending on what the penalty yardage is (5, 10, 15) and move the chains backwards. If the ball is in advance of the front stake then you know it will be a first down after you walk off the yardage. If it's short, grab the spot on the chain and move the chain the penalty distance and spot the ball at that spot.

Let see, the original spot of the last first down is really a guesstimate. The HL placing the chains for that first down is a guesstimate. Subsequent down spots and placement of the box to those spots are guesstimates. Why would we suddenly now need some assured placement? And just what are they going to measure against. Was the ball moved at all between the last down and the penalty call? Did the center make an allowed adjustment (I'll bet my last $$ yes), so where is the "spot" now? Sorry, but the bottom line is you take the box spot as your best available guesstimate and if it's 3 inches behind the tape at the 5 yd mark, then a 5 yd penalty leaves you 3 inches short. Move on and quit complaining about it, unless of course you're an idiot announcer who doesn't know jack about how to officiate.

I'm not complaining, just trying to get some discussion going. I have never done it the way I have suggested, but have been considering for the last couple of years since I had a case where the box was behind the tape, but the five yard walk off ended up giving A the first down.

What happened was we had a five yard penalty against the home team. Visiting team had the ball. Box was behind the tape, so I knew it wasn't going to be a first down (or at least it shouldn't have been). I walked it off and while walking, it became apparent, the walk-off was going to put the ball beyond the line to gain. I shortened my steps and placed the ball down a little behind the last step to be sure it was behind the line to gain, but it still appeared to give A a first down, in fact the coach requested a measurement. R took a look and agreed. We measured and it was a first down. What I think happened is the home team boxman intentionally placed the box behind the tape, knowing the mechanic. Now, I know I screwed up by not taking a close look at where the ball was in relation to the nearest yard line (I think it was near the middle between two yard lines and there were no hash marks) and the linesman screwed up by not catching it, but it got me to thinking about actually measuring as opposed to using the box when it is close.

The number one suggestion is to slow down - don't feel rushed because the 30 - 60 seconds it takes to get this right won't be noticed. On this type you have to do a little math. It's 15 yards from the 43 so you have 7 to the 50 and then 8 to the 42. Since you are about a ball this side of the 43, you have the same distance on the same side of the 42. Say all of this out loud to the rest of the crew as you're figuring it out. Have the HL mark it off independently and it should work out easily.

I don't even do the math. I pick up the ball and pace the distance to the next yard line. In this case I'll have 2 yards to A's 45, the 50 makes 7 yards, the B's 45 makes 12 yards, then pace off the 3 additional yards needed. Do not pace off all 15 yards. If the field is marked off well enough that I can determine that the ball was 3 inches short of A's 43 to start I'll mark the ball that same 3 inches from B's 42. In the grand scheme of things that 3 inches isn't very significant.

When all possible, start the new series on the yard line.

HL should always know if 5 gets a first down.

This is why you don't walk it off. Look at the spot where the ball is and go straight to the succeeding spot. Since you know that the ball will be 3 inches short, then guestimate the 3 inches and place the ball. I've seen officials try to walk off yardage and end up going either 4 yards or 7 yards for a 5 yard penalty.

OK, I've thought about this some more. The difference between the line to gain and the box location is that once set, the box is the official spot for the ball's location, whereas when the ball is near the line to gain, the ball has just been spotted and is therefore the official location. What this means is there is no need to measure to see where the ball is in relation to the tape, since the box represents the official location of the ball. As someone pointed out, the center may have made an adjustment, or there may have been an incomplete pass before the 5 yard foul was committed. We would have placed the ball according to the box location. The time to measure if at all is when the box is initially placed near the tape. I am not advocating that this be done, but it does bring out the importance of making sure the box is correctly located when it is first placed near the tape, either in front of or behind.