Substitutions

[WPrice1114]

This play took a considerable amount of time in discussion at recent association meeting.

Situation: Ready for play is given, Team A is in the huddle, 4th and 4. As the 25 second play clock winds down, team A has not sent out a punt team.

At about 15 seconds to go, Team A quickly sends out the punt team (who was gathered on the sideline) in a dead sprint to the line of scrimmage. As Team B (now R) is making wholesale substitutions to get their return team on the field, Team A (now K) snaps and punts the ball.

Here's the big problem......Team R has 15+ players on the field. Some are definitely trying to get off, not trying to participate.

What do you do? The officials on the field judged this to NOT be a deceptive tactic. But, it does smell of it a bit, doesn't it? It's obvious that Team A did it to gain an advantage (either earning a 1st down through a 15 yd illegal participation penalty or 5yd illegal substitution penalty).

We came to the consensus (in the officials meeting) that the play should be killed when the snap is eminent, thereby penalizing Team B/R for illegal substitution; rather than allowing the play to occur and having to penalize 15 for illegal participation.

I'd love to hear thoughts on this!

[BktBallRef]

Yes, the call should be IS. Why would you wait and call IP when it's obvious the R has too many men on the field?

BTW< I see nothing wrong with K's play. As long as they don't delay and they only have 11 players on the field at the required times, their play is legal.

[wadep1965]

I specifically noted that K does DELAY. They let the play clock run down, with the offense in the huddle. Then, in a mad sprint (on some undetected signal), A runs off and K runs on...straight to the LOS, and snaps immediately (after all are set for 1sec.)

This isn't SOP for substituting A for K. I think, still, that it smells of deception.

[BktBallRef]

The word delay does not appear in your original post, so I'm unsure as to how you specifically noted that "K does DELAY."

When you post on a board such as this, you can't just use a word without using it in the proper context from the rule book. For example, on a football discussion board and in the rulebook, the word "catch" means that a player has possessed a ball in flight and returned to the ground inbounds. It does not mean that he just caught the ball.

The word "delay" means that a team has violated some portion of 3-6-2. Rule 3-6 is the only place that the word appears in the rule book. On a football discussion board and in the rule book, the word "delay" does not mean that they took their time sending their punt team onto the field.

When I make the statement, "As long as they don't delay," that means as long as K does not delay the game by allowing the 25 second clock to expire, they have not committed any foul. Did they? If they did, then that's the flag that should have been thrown.

As long as players are running off the field, subs are running on, no more than 11 are in the huddle at a given time, and all other substitution requirements are met, this strategy is legal. B always has the option of keeping the same 11 on the field or requesting TO if they have an timeouts available.

Some things do smell of deception. But football is a game of deception. Unless such a play is specifically addressed or interpreted in the rulebook or casebook, such as the QB in motion play that we've been discussing, then it is legal. I think you'd have a hard time selling this one as illegal.

Welcome to the board!

[NCOfficial]

I agree with BRef. This is a well designed play and as long as they snap the ball before the 25 sec clock runs out then it is good. The offense does not have to wait until the defense is ready to snap the ball. A just caught B with there pants down.

[Zeke5]

I agree that this is a legal play by K, but we owe it to R to shut the play down for the 5 yard I.S. if they have more than 11 on the field when a snap is imminent.

[Edited by Zeke5 on Sep 13th, 2001 at 10:05 AM]

[bluezebra]

Zeke5:

You're punishing K for R's foul. There is no penalty for IS until the ball is snapped.

Bob

[Zeke5]

Not true. Once the ball is snapped, it is then IP. It is our mechanic in MD to shut a play down just before the snap if we see more than 22 players on the field.

[Edited by Zeke5 on Sep 13th, 2001 at 01:03 PM]

[STEVED21]

Zeke:
I don't you can call IS before the snap if R is trying to get off the field. If you don't have the 25 visable, you could actually penalize the wrong team if K waited that long to sub. I think you have to wait until the snap and call IS if the don't get off in time. If more than 11 R's stay in formation, then you can blow it before the snap. We really shouldn't get an IP out of this play.

[BktBallRef]

Zeke is saying to kill the play and flag for IS because it's obvious that they are going to have more than 11 players on the field at the snap. If you wait for the sanp, it's a live ball foul and it's IP, not IS.

[bluezebra]

Read 3-7-5. There is no penalty until the ball is snapped. Nothing is "obvious". If a player(s) is attempting to leave the field, and doesn't participate, it's illegal substitution, NOT participation.

Bob

[STEVED21]

It's not IP unless he particpates in the play. Failure to get off the field before the snap would be IS.

[BktBallRef]

You guys are missing the point. We're not disagreeing with what you're saying. But the original post says there's 15+ players on the field with "some" trying to get off. At the very least you're going to have IS. But we're saying that if it's obvious that there are going to be 12 or more players in the formation at the snap, then flag it and kill it. See the comment below from the case book.

3.7.2 Comment
In a related situation, if the covering official's count of players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul is charged since it is obvious a replaced player(s) did not leave immediately. However, if the official's count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the substitution has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave immediately as required.

[Tom Cook]

Just one more thing fellows. In this type of situation I would not give any leeway whatsoever to K as far as proceedure; being set, being in a legal formation, etc.
When these types of plays are attempted we always make the R or A team set up perfectly. If they've got time to practice these types of plays, they should run them perfectly.

[WVREF]

I have to agree that you have to wait for the snap and then penalize for IS as long as none of the extra players participate. Otherwise you are denying R the opportunity to call time out and prevent any penalty.