12 men breaking the huddle

mcrowder

Not necessarily. Nothing in the OP indicates that the 12th player was in the huddle an inordinate amount of time. This is clearly a foul in NCAA, but there is not a FED rule that says breaking the huddle with 12 is illegal.

What IS illegal is the sub not coming off "immediately". There IS judgement that comes into play when deciding what "immediately" means, and if there is no A) intent to deceive or B) actual deception (even if unintentional), you have no reason to flag this other than showing that your are an OOO.

kd0254

I would give 3-5 seconds (my interpretation of immeadiatly) for the substitute to leave, otherwise it would draw a flag from me.

mcrowder

kd0254 wrote
I would give 3-5 seconds (my interpretation of immeadiatly) for the substitute to leave, otherwise it would draw a flag from me.

Works for me... but the OP doesn't say one way or another, and everyone is assuming that the extra player was out for more than that. I'm just saying we can't assume, and it is important to know (in FED) that the penalty is NOT for "breaking the huddle with 12", even though coaches will yell for exactly that, but rather for the sub not coming off "immediately".

Warrenkicker

Something related to this happened this last Friday. The team on the other sideline is lined up for a scrimmage kick. They realize that they only have 10 players out there and run a wing back in late and he easily gets set in time for the snap. I have some coach going nuts behind me yelling that they broke the huddle with 10. 😕 I calmly tell him that isn't a rule. 😎 He then says that it should be. 😮 Oh, if we let the inmates run the assylum.

RonRef

Warrenkicker wrote
Something related to this happened this last Friday. The team on the other sideline is lined up for a scrimmage kick. They realize that they only have 10 players out there and run a wing back in late and he easily gets set in time for the snap. I have some coach going nuts behind me yelling that they broke the huddle with 10. 😕 I calmly tell him that isn't a rule. 😎 He then says that it should be. 😮 Oh, if we let the inmates run the assylum.

This is what you get when you let 14 coaches on the field for the varsity game on Friday night!

FootballRef05

gtwbam wrote
It's 4th and 1 from the 50 yard line, When Team A breaks the huddle with 12 men. Prior to Team A getting in their punt formation the coach yells for the 12th man to run off the field. He does. As an added note their was no intent by Team A to deceive, just confusion on their part.
Interested in everyone's interpretation if this is an illegal substitution or not?

Flag it. The replaced played did not immediately leave the field of play. Breaking the huddle with 12 has bearing and is not a HS rule.

Warrenkicker

RonRef wrote
This is what you get when you let 14 coaches on the field for the varsity game on Friday night!

14??? I think it was closer to 20!!!!

sloth

I wanted to give this thread a big old bump for my white hat who frequents this site.

We had a spirited discussion during halftime of our game last night (which was televised as the game of the week...very cool experience seeing yourself on TV). The crew maintained that you can't break the huddle with 12 players. I insisted that was an NCAA rule and that in federation the simple act of breaking the huddle with over 11 players isn't a penalty itself nor is it automatically a substitution infraction. I understand the concerns of a replaced player not leaving the field in a timely fashion; but furthering a misnomer, that most all coaches hold about the rules, only serves to make our job harder.

Bob M.

REPLY: sloth...you're correct and your crew needs to get on the right page with this: There is only one foul that might be called in this type of situation. It is simply for failure of a replaced player to leave the field 'immediately' after being informed that he's been replaced. There is no Federation foul specifically specified for breaking the huddle with twelve players. There is in NCAA, but not in Federation! So if a substitute enters a huddle just before they are about to break and as the huddle breaks, the replaced player heads off to his sideline and off the field, there is no foul!

Zebra in NV

In general, this is a judgement call regarding the "immediately". Our association prefers we flag them as a substitution violation, rather than have it develop into a participation violation. If I hear the sub tell 62 Jones "you're out" and Jones is having a brain fart, I'm cutting them some slack on the "immediately".

Theisey

an acceptable time for "immediate" is 3 to 5 seconds.

sloth

I agree with the 3 to 5 second window. I think it really is up to the white hat to watch the situation and make the call based on his opinion as to what "immediate" is considered.

I really don't want to give coaches that easially quantifable criteria if its wrong. Thats where I think as officials we ALWAYS need to avoid the term "breaking the huddle with 12 players". Its not the rule, and while the spirit of the federation rule is very similar, its not the same absolute cut and dry measurement as to if a foul has occured. There is that discression allowed to the referee to let it pass if it wasn't intended to gain an advantage or deliberate in nature.