After further review - snap muffed by holder

[wisref2]

Sorry for restarting a threat - but I think we have to reopen our discussion about a snap muffed by the holder. After actually studying the rule, rather than just reading the change - it is clear that many of us had it wrong.

The rule in question is 4-2-a-2. The rule states the ball remains live if the holder "rises and catches or recovers an errant snap...." The words "or recovers" are this year's addition.

The NOTE has not changed - it still says the ball is dead if the holder "muffs the snap or fumbles and recovers after his knees have been off the ground, and he then touches the ground...."

In the explanation of the rules on page 83, it states the holder is "now allowed to recover a short snap that bounces high in the same way a high snap is handled."

I hope our rule interpretation meetings make it clear, but it appears to me that if the ball bounces before it reaches the holder, he may lift his knee to get the ball and then go back down. However, if the snap reaches the holder and he simply fails to catch it, he is not allowed to do that.

Comments, please?

[MJT]

Originally Posted by wisref2

Sorry for restarting a threat - but I think we have to reopen our discussion about a snap muffed by the holder. After actually studying the rule, rather than just reading the change - it is clear that many of us had it wrong.

The rule in question is 4-2-a-2. The rule states the ball remains live if the holder "rises and catches or recovers an errant snap...." The words "or recovers" are this year's addition.

The NOTE has not changed - it still says the ball is dead if the holder "muffs the snap or fumbles and recovers after his knees have been off the ground, and he then touches the ground...."

In the explanation of the rules on page 83, it states the holder is "now allowed to recover a short snap that bounces high in the same way a high snap is handled."

I hope our rule interpretation meetings make it clear, but it appears to me that if the ball bounces before it reaches the holder, he may lift his knee to get the ball and then go back down. However, if the snap reaches the holder and he simply fails to catch it, he is not allowed to do that.

Comments, please?

You are correct in your last statement. It is supported by a Redding SG example which says "With K13 in position to kick, K24 (a) fumbles the ball as he places it and recovers with his knee still on the ground and then rises and runs, or (b) muffs the snap; the ball rolls away and K24 rises to recover and then returns to his knees to place the ball. ((Ruling)) In (a) legal play. In (b), the ball becomes dead when K24 touches his knee to the ground after rising.

I think that if he can rise to recover a bad snap, grounded or not, he should be able to immediately return to his knee if he muffs the snap, but that is not how it is.

[Warrenkicker]

Let's see if this actually muddles this whole issue even further.

They have stated that the holder can now "recover" an errant "snap" and still have the exception.

Well let's first look at the definition of "snap."

2-36-3 The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player.

Now let's look at the definition of "recover."

2-34-1 A recovery is gaining possession of a live ball after it strikes the ground. An airborne player has completed a recovery when he first contacts the ground inbounds with the ball in his possession.

So this tells me that it is impossible by rule to recover a snap as you can't recover an ungrounded ball and a grounded ball is not a snap anymore. So what have they actually done with this new rule? Nothing!!! I know what they were trying to do but it sure doesn't seem that they got there. They were only one or two words away from getting it done though.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally Posted by wisref2

Sorry for restarting a threat - but I think we have to reopen our discussion about a snap muffed by the holder. After actually studying the rule, rather than just reading the change - it is clear that many of us had it wrong.

The rule in question is 4-2-a-2. The rule states the ball remains live if the holder "rises and catches or recovers an errant snap...." The words "or recovers" are this year's addition.

The NOTE has not changed - it still says the ball is dead if the holder "muffs the snap or fumbles and recovers after his knees have been off the ground, and he then touches the ground...."

In the explanation of the rules on page 83, it states the holder is "now allowed to recover a short snap that bounces high in the same way a high snap is handled."

I hope our rule interpretation meetings make it clear, but it appears to me that if the ball bounces before it reaches the holder, he may lift his knee to get the ball and then go back down. However, if the snap reaches the holder and he simply fails to catch it, he is not allowed to do that.

Comments, please?

Let me ask this: isn't the snap to a QB considered a backwards pass anyways? So, the real difference comes in the terms used as the action happens:

muff snap: holder never recieved the snap anyways just as a qb would not get a muffed snap.

fumble: can only happen once possesion is there.

SO, if possession by the holder has been gained, holder may not go back down to knee, if no possession, holder is allowed to go back down.

Am I right?????

[wisref2]

sm_bbcoach - I don't think your last statement is correct. It appears the new exception doesn't apply to a muffed snap - which, of course, is a case in which there was no possession.

As I said, "The NOTE has not changed - it still says the ball is dead if the holder "muffs the snap or fumbles and recovers after his knees have been off the ground, and he then touches the ground...."

We have our rules interpretation meeting Wednesday night. Anyone had this discussed at a rule meeting yet?