2 snap questions (NF)
 

NF Rules--

Hello all. I have 2 questions about the snap, ready for play, etc.

(1) Is it illegal to snap the ball before the ready for play? I wanted to think that it was, but I could not find it in the rules. (NF references, if applicable, are apprecitated)

(2) A 1/10 at their own 20. Before the ready for play, A's snapper goes up and rotates the ball end to end. Is this illegal if he does this before the RFP? Also, if this is a foul, would it be 1/10 or 1/15 since the RFP was not blown?

Thanks for all the responses.

(NF rules from 2005 rule book, rule numbers or article numbers and sub-letters may have changed.)

Rule 2-6
ART. 1 The ball is ready for play when, after it has been placed for a down, the referee gives the ready-for-play signal. The 25-second count shall then begin.
ART. 2 Action or inaction which prevents promptness in putting the ball in play is delay of game. This includes:
a. Failure to snap or free-kick within 25 seconds after the ball is ready for play.
b. Unnecessarily carrying the ball after it has become dead or consuming time in failing to unpile at the end of a down.
c. A coach-referee conference after all the permissible charged time-outs for the coach’s team have been used, and during which the referee is requested to reconsider the application of a rule and no change in the ruling results.
d. Failure to properly wear legal or required player equipment when the ball is about to become live.
e. Snapping or free-kicking the ball before it is marked ready for play.
f. Any other conduct which unduly prolongs the game.

PENALTY: Delay of game (Arts. 2a,b,c,e,f; 5) - (S7-21)

So it is illegal and is delay of game if the snap (or free kick) happens prior to the RFP.

As for rotating the ball prior to the RFP, the snapper might not be allowed by some umpires to even touch the ball prior to the RFP but that is up to personal preference. But touching the ball prior to the RFP is not illegal.

Rule 7-1
ART. 1 The snapper may be over the ball but his feet must be behind the neutral zone and no part of his person, other than a hand(s) on the ball, may be beyond the foremost point of the ball.
ART. 2 The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation but may not rotate end-for-end or change the location or fail to keep the long axis of the ball at right angles to the line of scrimmage.
ART. 3 Following the ready-for-play and after touching the ball, the snapper shall not:
a. Remove both hands from the ball.
b. Make any movement that simulates a snap.
c. Fail to clearly pause before the snap.
d. Following adjustment, lift or move the ball other than in a legal snap.

It does not specify when the ball can't be rotated end-for-end in article 2 but in article 3 they specify only after the RFP so I would say that rotating end-for-end is never allowed.

And as for your last question about what the down and distance will be since the foul occurred before the RFP the chains had not been officially set and will be reset to the new position.

5.1.2 SITUATION E: Fourth and 2 on B's 25-yard line. A1 is tackled at the 26, short of the line to gain, and B2 then piles on. RULING: The referee shall signal a change of possession by signaling first down toward A's goal. The penalty for B2's dead-ball foul is administered and the line-to-gain equipment then set, making it first and 10 for B from its own 13-yard line. COMMENT: On fourth-down plays, A must get a first down by virtue of the yardage gained, including any yardage or an automatic first down from penalties for player fouls during the down, or it is a new series for B automatically when the down ends unless the down is to be repeated. The penalties for all unsportsmanlike and non-player fouls which occur during the down in which a new series is awarded, and dead-ball fouls prior to the subsequent ready-for-play signal, will be administered before the new line to gain is established and the chain and box are set. In all cases it will be first and 10 for A unless it is inside the opponent's 10-yard line. On plays other than on fourth down, A may gain a first down by virtue of the yards gained or from penalty enforcement.

In both of these situations, as the umpire, I'm not going to allow either to occur.

Where's your umpire when this occurs? :)

Agreed BktBallRef, my U will be over the ball until I blow the RFP and not let that happen.

Although, one of our more funny experiences happened in a 7th grade game a few years back. At the end of the game A is down by a few points and the QB runs the ball about 6 yards from the left hash and ends up on the right hash in front of their box area. A's coaches are yelling "spike the ball to stop the clock" and before any official gets to the ball, the center gets up there, hollars at the QB, snaps it to him and the QB spikes it. Everyone had quite a laugh, including the coaches. We had a DOG penalty and had another play or two before the game ended. That was about as funny as an 8th grade game when a kid returned an INT for a TD and put a NFL quality spike on the ball. Dang thing must have bounced 25 feet in the air. :)

"We had a DOG penalty"

MJT-Did you start the clock at the RFP or at the snap?

I believe that you start the clock on the RFP.

The clock always starts on the snap if a delay of game penalty is accepted.

True, 3-4-3i says: The clock shall start with the snap or when any free-kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because: The penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted.

However 3-6-3 also says: When a team attempts to conserve or consume time illegally, the referee shall order the clock started or stopped.

So I would agree with Sonofanump that this is a situation where the rules allow for 3-4-3i to be overruled by 3-6-3 and the clock to start on the RFP. Granted there are worse examples of a DOG but I would really think about winding on the RFP in this situation.

Why would I start the clock on the RFP when they are trying to conserve time to win the game and got it snapped by doing so illegally? They got the clock stopped illegally to help them out and you think I should override 3-4-3i and help them out. It would make more sense in the middle of the 1st qtr to do that on a second down play, and we dont do it then.

Are we talking about the same thing here?

A is trailing, has the ball and the clock is running out. A needs the clock stopped so they are going to spike the ball. A spikes the ball so as to stop the clock. However they do it illegally and are penalized with a delay of game.

Have I mistakenly described your situation?

Thus the clock was stopped by an illegal act and thus A has conserved time illegally just like I read 3-6-3. If this is all true then the referee has the obligation to start the clock on the RFP.

I'm not too keen on my U being over the ball, especially if A is up on the line ready to go (hurry up). Once I blow that RFP there's nothing that prevents a quick snap and the idea of my U backing up while the play goes off around him is a little less than appealing.

The way we usually do it is I (the umpire) stay over the ball until the center starts to get in position, I very clearly tell him do not snap the ball until the RFP sounds, I make eye contact with R, and then back into my regular position. Then when I'm in position, the R gives the RFP.

Doing it that way doesn't leave the ball "uncovered" when A comes to the line, and only takes a couple of seconds.

I must really be braindead today. I meant the whole time that it would be an advantage to team A to start the clock on the snap, so yes, I started it on the RFP. We are now on vacation, and when I was going thru this I didn't have my mind on right. Thank goodness our motel has internet in the lobby. My laptop is getting repaired and I would have looked like an idiot for 4 more days.

3-6-3
 

3-6-3 isn't what it used to be. We are all going to have to now remember 3-4-6. The 2006 version of the rules list 3-6-3 as giving the R the authority to forfeit the game if a team refuses to play. 3-4-6 just doesn't flow off the tongue as easy as 3-6-3 did. After 25 years I guess I'll have to adapt.

MJT - well I'm glad we have gotten that straightened out.

whitehat52 - I'm glad you did notice that the rules reference was wrong. I have not yet got a copy of my books at work and so I have been using my 2005 copy and thus the disclaimer at the top of the first post. Today I am starting on getting a copy at work. Too bad they don't issue this thing as one document on-line otherwise I have to sit here and convert it all into Word.