quick question about penalties that involve "half the distance to the goal line" situations. while the team is penalized a smaller number of yards than they would if they were, say, at the 50-yard line, i am curious to know whether the first down marker is moved forward to compensate for the reduced penalty yardage?

EXAMPLE: team on their own 10-yard line, called for a holding penalty on 1st and 10. so this means that they will get pushed back half the distance to the 5 yard line. the next play will be 1st and 15 from the 5-yard line, right? well, why isn't it 1st and 20 from the 5 (like it would be if their were at the 40 yard line)? i think the half-the-distance rule is fair, but the penalized team should still get full punishment by having the first down marker moved out.

i never recall hearing anything about the first yard marker being moved, but it seems strange that the penalizeed team is not fully punished because the yards needed to gain a first down are less than if they were in the middle of the field. any thoughts? do the rules state that the first down marker is not moved? and why is this the case?

I think because there are equivalent situations on the other end of the field that do not grant them what would normally be a first down. For example, 3rd and 9 from the 10 yard line. The running back takes the handoff and is face masked (5 yard variety) and the end of the run is at the 5. Half the distance to the goal, 3rd and 3.5 yards. Normally that would be a first down, but we don't grant that in this case.

The argument, I think, is that these cases average out, offense and defense both getting shafted on yards when within the shadows of the goalposts.

The line to gain is not moved any other time. There's no reason to move it inside the 30 either. The rule is the saem for both teams. There's euquity.

Interesting.

The Canadian rule is that you can only ever go a maximum of half-the-distance (1 exception being pass interference) to the goal. If the first down marker or the goal line is reached, a first down is awarded.

Going on this explanation, if the unrestricted distance would've resulted in a first down or the goal line being reached then a first down is awarded.

Ok, these two are losing me. First, the Canadian sounds very American football-like. No more than half the distance, unless the line to gain is reached (or a penalty that awards an automatic 1st down). So I don't think we differ there.

The latter loses me. No penalty will make the ball reach the goal line. You can get infinitesimaly close, but not reach it. And even if you could, wouldn't reaching it be a score, not a first down?

Ok, these two are losing me. First, the Canadian sounds very American football-like. No more than half the distance, unless the line to gain is reached (or a penalty that awards an automatic 1st down). So I don't think we differ there.[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok. Agreed.

Holding is a 10 yard foul. If the LS is within the 10, then applying 10y reaches the GL. Therefore, it is HTD and AFD. And we don't scrimmage from within the 1, because we have a 1y NZ.

Let's say it was 2D/12 from the 18 (having to get to the 6). A defensive 10y foul goes HTD (not 10, b/c 10 > 9), but is *not* an AFD.

IOW, when we say reaching the GL, we mean an AFD.

But it doesn't reach the GL. It only goes half the distance. But I think I see what you are saying. If the penalty, unrestricted, were to reach the GL, automatic first down.

So if on the 1, going in, if there is a defensive penalty, it stays at the 1, automatic 1st down.

What about the 1 going out and an offensive penalty? Do you go back to the half in that case, since you can still get the 1 yard NZ? And the automatic first down only applies to going into the EZ?

No. We stay at the 1. But, we do have to penalize something, so it is a loss of down. On 3rd down, we do not lose a down, because that would just cause a turnover, and that's not cool. So we just repeat the down. The timing rules that exist prevent the running out of the clock at the end of the game.