In my Pre Game with a coach on Turkey Day he gave me the following description of a play.

He said on 4th down plays the QB goes under center, everybody gets set, then the QB legally goes "in motion" in that he's walking toward his bench with his hands out to the side (palms facing up) as if to indicate he's confused and needs more direction from the coaching staff. The ball then gets snapped to the fullback who advances beyond the LTG.

I replied this was not legal deception as with belly, reverse, etc. and this was illegal and would be ruled USC prior to the snap. He tried to convince me that officials allowed this in the prior week's playoff game. I told them they had erred and this was illegal.

Then he wanted to modify the play and have the QB "point at the receiver" as if he was giving him further instructions.

I said "coach, you know as well as I do you're trying to trick the defense into thinking there's some kind of problem when the snap is imminent and that's illegal." He was a little annoyed and I said it's not legal today.

I chock this up with "where's the tee play" which shows as illegal in the case book.

Anyone disagree with how I handled this (and the ruling)?

Everything sounds like you handled it well. I never realized these types of plays were considered USC until this year.

I filled in with another crew as HL last Wednesday night. The home team pulled a similar play. The QB started walking to his bench (away from me). I couldn't tell at the time but was told during the intermission that he was shouting something to the bench. As he's doing this the ball was snapped directly to one of the backs.

After talking play over they decided that they should have flagged it when it happened.

...and it's always the crew LAST WEEK that let them do it! (whatever "it" is) I've decided that I never want to be "last week's crew".

I can only guess they didn't flag it...LOL ;)(

I can tell you right now coaches say that "last week they..." all the time. I knwo for a fact that they lie about it. Many may tell the truth, but there was one time where I was on "last week's crew" and I can tell you we did not allow it but he said we did. Those coaches think they're so smart.

I've had the same thing happen twice. My line to this was "Gee coach, I was on the game last week. I don't remember that play, but I'll check the video tape and let the state associaction know if there was a mistake made!"
You can't get that much back filling without a skip loader.

Had this in a JV game earlier in the year, believe I posted on it after it happened. The game was out of hand and I think the coach was just messing around at that point, so we didn't flag it. But I told him after the play that it was illegal. Of course, "They let us do it Friday night" and "Peyton Manning does it all the time."

I just don't see why coaches can't get it through their heads: legal in the pros does not necessarily mean legal in high school. But then again, none of these clowns have ever read a rule book.

Good job, LJ. I can't wait 'til the first time I see this play!

I only saw Peyton do it once and he got flagged for illegal motion -- he went under center then went in motion.

The last game of the season an assistant of a 1-7 team challenged me that the QB walking away looking for instructions play was legal and he was going to run it. I said, "OK coach and I will flag you for it." He wanted to see the rule. I found it in the Casebook under 9.9. They did not run the play and finished 1-8.

Maybe they should have spent more time working on legal plays!

REPLY: I agree that this play is patently illegal and should be stopped. But it does call a fundamental embodied in NF 2-16-4 into question: Since you can't flag this early (maybe the QB really is confused about the play or maybe they really do need the tee), you've got to wait until the ball is snapped to see the intent play out, and then flag it. In essence, once the ball is snapped, you now have a foul which causes the live ball to become dead.

Not saying it's not right to do so, but it is in conflict with a Fed rule.

I knew the rule was illegal but enforcement is confusing, that is, until you reason it out.

The foul does not occur until the deception takes place. It happens at the snap of the ball. However, unsportsmanlike penalties are enforced from the succeeding spot. But, no penalty is designed to allow the team being penalized to gain from the illegal act -- A advanced the ball as a result of the deception. Therefore, the spot of enforcement should be the succeeding spot from the previous play.

OK, So you want rule enforcement!?

Use 9.9, Unfair acts, which gives the referee great latitude in determining penalties.

I believe in the "where's the tee play" they say USC prior to the snap. So the only way I see to do this is to shut the play down as if it's a false start. That's what I would do, then if someone says something different you could always point to that play in the case book. And, in the end you pretty much got it right and with the confusion between rules and the case book you have ground to stand on.

Two questions in my mind.

1) Does this type of foul occur at the snap and once the ball is snapped, then shut it down?

2) If the QB does not go under center, does not say anything, but goes in motion with only his palms in the air, do we have anything illegal?

NCAA: Live ball foul, 15 yards from Previous spot. Clears up Ed's problem with succeeding spot.

Does Fed list this as a "live ball" foul? If not, you can blow the play dead, enforce it from the Suc. Spot and be OK. Otherwise, the rule needs to be changed, as if they gain 50 yards, but have to give back 35, it still worked.

don't they all think that?

When ever a coach says show me. I ask you show me?

Here it is from the casebook:

9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, “Where's the tee?” A2 replies, “I'll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward his team's sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.

<B>RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.</B>

Makes sense. The foul truly occurred before the snap. If you let the play continue and they go 50-yards for a TD you could have a debate over enforcement.

Best my memory can recall Peyton Manning went under the snapper, then walked toward his bench and the ball was snapped to a back. They let the play go and then called it back for the penalty.

Of course, us TV viewers have to rely on the usual unknowledgeable announcers to explain it to us.

REPLY: I'm not arguing against USC enforcement from the succeeding spot. It's just that you really can't blow it dead <u>before</u> the snap because there might just be legitimate confusion (or a missing tee). You need to wait till the snap to actually determine that the confusion was a designed ploy to deceive the defense. And then you need to stop the play now in progress with a whistle. Essentially, the foul makes the now live ball dead. It's fair, but it's just incongruent with other rules.

Canadian Interpretation
 

Perhaps you can think of it as a retroactive dead ball foul. The foul occured before the snap but you did not know it until after the snap. So you kill the play and enforce as if the play never happened.

We have similiar "retroactive" instances in the Canadian game. Pass Inteference occurs when the ball is in the air while illegal contact occurs on passing plays before the ball is in the air.

If the offense commits illegal contact then we only know that it is a passing play once they throw the ball. So we flag the IC when the ball is in the air even though the foul by definition occured before the ball was in the air.