We have had some discussions on what actually constitutes flagging roughing the passer. Specifically we are talking about double-reverse passes, halfback passes, rollouts, etc. The discussion is whether the person throwing the ball has protection, regardless of the action leading up to the pass.

In all the examples below, the ball has been clearly passed from behind the NZ.

1. A1 takes the snap and sprints out to the left. A1 throws a forward pass beyond the NZ.

2. A1 takes the snap, pitches to A2. A2 rolls left and throws a forward pass beyond the NZ.

3. A1 takes the snap, hands off to A2 going left. A2 hands off to A3 going right. A3 throws a forward pass beyond the NZ.

4. A1 takes the snap and throws a backwards pass to the left to A2. A2 throws a forward pass beyond the NZ.

In all these examples, is the call RTP or just a personal foul? The argument in our association has been that since the action leading up to the pass indicates a running play, B does not have a reasonable expectation that a pass will be thrown.

On the other side, people are quoting 9.4.4. Nowhere in 9.4.4 does it say anything about action before the pass. Yet the casebook only addresses #1 above explicitly. I'm in the camp that all 4 cases can be RTP.

NCAA- the passer is always protected.

I'm not so sure you can have RTP in #4 if the "roughing" is on A1. A1 by definition (I think) is not a passer. I thought that to be qualifed as a passer you must throw a forward pass.

Hopefully Zebtu sees this and pastes in the definition.

I would agree. Only the player who throws the forward pass would have RTP protection. But the others could still be subject to the same personal fouls as all other players.

The protection is for the player that throws a forward pass. Use a combination of Rule 2-30-11 (definition of a passer) and Rule 9-4-4 (roughing the passer). The key word is "passer" not quarterback, running back, etc. Thus in all the plays above, the player throwing the forward pass is afforded RTP protection. RTP rule 9-4-4 does not have any stipulations that accompany RTK/H (9-4-5, therefore whether there is a reasonable expectation of the pass being thrown is not a consideration in RTP.

REPLY: (masquerading as Zebtu...)

stevesmith is correct. According to NF 2-30-11: <i>"A passer is a player who throws a <u>forward</u> pass. He continues to be a passer until the pass ends or until he moves to participate in the play."</i>

At what point, when there is contact, do you have roughing? Do you use a count as a rule of thumb or do you decide whether the defender has the opportunity to let up, go by, etc? If he has commited to make the hit and the ball is released is it a foul?

Thanks Bob. I was certain it was only a player who threw a forward pass but didn't have the book w/ me.

Gman34, I usually say "off the quarterback" or the "the ball is away." I don't say it until the ball is truly away and since it takes at least a full second (2 full steps by the defender) anything after that you can have RTP. Someone gave me that advice last year and seems to work.

This is all judgment but I will flag for RTP if B player hits the helmet. This is even if the hit is not late.

All defensive players are responsible for knowing if a player has passed the ball and must make a concerted effort to not hit him once he has throw it. The judgement comes in deciding if the defender is too close to altar his path or his charge once the ball is thrown.
A veteran referee once told me he judged it like this: If the defender tackles the passer, no roughing. If the defender hits the passer but does not try to wrap him up and tackle him, it is roughing because he obviously knew the passer no longer had the ball.

Just to tie together some points that were already made:

1. RTP does not deal with the reasonability that a pass with occur. That is only a factor for roughing the kicker.

2. A defender should realize when a pass has been thrown. If A2 throws a pass and B99 immeditely hits him, it is not RTP (unless particularly vicious, etc.) even if it was obvious a pass was going to occur. If A2 is scrambling and throws a pass, B99 better (should) realize that a pass was thrown and has a responsibility to avoid unnecessary contact on the passer, even if it did not appear reasonable that a pass would occur.

Finally, no one who throws a forward pass from beyond the NZ is afforded protection....you must throw from in/behind the NZ (9-4-4), although personal foul is still on the table. Also, in situation (4), A1 is indeed not a passer, because, by definiton, a passer throws a forward pass (2-30-11).

Just a couple of clarifications.

1. The issue was whether it was RTP or just a PF. Since RTP includes an automatic 1st down, some were arguing that they could all a PF, but they would not include the automatic 1st.

2. In situation #4, it was about whether A2 could be roughed, not A1.