Is there any difference in the enforcement of penalties during a try. The reason I ask is because we had a facemask penalty on B behind the line of scrimmage on a two point try. The WH instructed me to go back to the original line of scrimmage and mark off half the distance. I thought that the penalty for face mask was from the end of the run (in this case, the 9 yard line). When I asked him why we didn't enforce from the 9, he said that the penalty enforcement is different on a try. I have looked all through the rulebook/casebook and can find no mention of penalties being enforced differently on tries. Where should this face mask penalty have been enforced from?

From the end of the run. Your white hat was wrong.

If the foul had been during a loose ball play, then the previous spot is the basic spot.

NF: Penalties aren't marked differently on tries... you had it right.

Don't know about Fed, but under NCAA, it is a basic spot foul, which makes enforcement depend on whether it is a running play, passing play, and where the run or pass ended -- beyond or behind the NZ. You mentioned the spot of the foul, but not what the result of the play was.

You're saying the ball was snapped from the 3, loss of six yards on the run? If so, then the FM is marked off from the end of the run and replayed from the 4 1/2.

That is correct for NF.

Now in the NFL, this is what is called a "behind-behind" (foul by the defense behind the LOS, and end of run behind the LOS) so you MUST get at least back to the original LOS. So in the NFL, you can have a 5 yard face mask that ends up being more than 5 yards to get the ball back to the original LOS.

Thanks, for the responses. I was referring to NFHS rules. What should I tell the WH to change his mind? I have already shown him the enforcement rules, which don't mention any differences in the way that penalties are marked off on a try vs. normal downs.

I ran into the same situation during my game Friday night. I was filling in as BJ and WH was filling in as well. They had a play where there was a holding foul at the LOS and the play ended in a 2 yard loss. I went up to get the information about the foul and heard that they wanted to enforce it from the previous spot because the foul occurred in advance of the end of the run which was a loss. I tried very quietly to tell them that was wrong and that we should be enforcing from the end of the run. Both R and U agreed so I let it go. At half time I brought it up again and showed them the enforcement from the back of the book on page 72. That showed that during a running play the previous spot is meaningless for penalty enforcement. WH is a college deep wing official and I think he decided he would just let us enforce it properly so that he didn't confuse the enforcements with the college ones. I convinced U that I was right and when we had another hold in the backfield later in the game we enforced it correctly.

Perhaps you can ask him where his special try enforcement rules are and then explain yourself using "all-but-one."

So, the holding penalty that is in advance of the end of the run (holding on line of scrimmage on a play for negative yardage) is marked off from the end of the run? Wow, that is another area where we enforce the penalty incorrectly. I think that we have been going back to the LOS as well.

I have seen that quite often. My opinion, is that some officials are in it for the paycheck and neglect to give the teams their all by not reading and re-reading the rules on a regular basis. In fact, I don't think some of the officials can even read. Every official on the field needs to know the rules just a well as the WH. When everyone knows the rules not only will the games be officiated correctly but most games will be officiated equitable between officiating crews as well. We won't have as much of, "that crew didn't do it that way last week", or "we have been doing that all year and you are the first one that has told me that it is illegal", etc.

I've never met an official who knew every application of every rule. That is why we have websites such as this. As far as officials "in it for the paycheck" that's ridiculous. Any average friday night for me involves approximately five plus hours of my time in addition to gas, postgame refreshments, grief from my wife and kids, abuse from players, coaches, parents, fans, and the media. There are certainly much easier ways to make a buck.

Ok, I know that the FM penalty on a try should be marked off from the end of the run. What would you tell your WH if you show him the enforcement rules and he still says that there is a difference in the way it is enforced on a try? I have already asked him to show me where the rulebook says to enforce differently. How do you convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced?

Sometimes you can't. The sad thing is that some guys can't or won't admit they're wrong. We have a guy like that on our crew. He can't admit he's wrong. To this day he won't admit to an inadvertant whistle that even Stevie Wonder could have seen. Your case in compounded by the fact that it's the white hat who can't admit he's wrong. Were you assigned to this guy or are you on a crew with him? I'd keep on him about the rule book until he either gets the book out or he blows a fuse. What about the others on the crew? Can you enlist them? How about a rules interpreter or your association people?

Be careful when you say a FM on a try is the end of the run. It may or may not be, depends on the type of play (loose ball play v. running play). Know your basic spots and the all but one and the difference between a loose ball play and a running play inside and out. That is about 90% of all penalty enforcement you will encounter. Finally, Google over to "Penalty Enforcement for Dummies". It's written by Bob M. who posts here often. It's the goods. I read it before every game. It takes the rule book and arranges all penalty enforcements in a logical manner. Show THAT to your white hat and ask him to use it to prove his point.

[Edited by schwinn on Nov 1st, 2005 at 08:58 AM]

Approach him as if you are assuming he's right, and want to prove HIS point to a colleague, but can't find the rule he's using for his justification in the book. Phrase it as if you are looking to learn from him. Perhaps when he fails to find it, he'll learn something himself.