hello

I was working a game last saturday and had this situaton occur. The offense broke a play for 40 yards and as the running back was about to score there was a persoanl foul by the offense at the 30 yard line, as the white hat i counted the score and accessed the penalty on the next play. Is this the proper procedure for this situation, i seemed to have read this exact play in a casebook sometime ago.


thanks for the help

I can't quote the rules book but I'll my 2 cents worth. Sense the foul occured before the touchdown it's a live ball foul. The touchdown is waved off and the penalty is marked off from the spot of the foul. The case book offers something close: 10-5-3-C

Should have waived off the TD. It's a live-ball player foul enforced under the all-but-one principle. The down should have been replayed after the 15-yard penalty.

Stuff happens...just learn from it and move on.

In my judgement, the PF was after the TD. :)

mcrowder, were you at the game?

In my judgment, I am not going to award a TD to the team that fouled.

It was a live ball foul and should have been penalized from the spot of the foul. Tough call.

Many officials penalize it like you did in order to avoid the anger of the offensive coach.

My technique in trying to avoid these stupid fouls that officials get blamed for -- we didn't do it! -- is to yell out to the players something like "don't hit him!" or "keep it clean" or something to the effect to let them know you are there and looking. The words don't really matter.

I've seen players get some engrossed trying to figure out what the crazy referee is saying until they forget to even think about hitting.

My comment was not entirely serious. However, how often have we seen exactly this kind of play get ignored because the referee feels the PF was so far from the play that it shouldn't take away the TD. Right, wrong, indifferent - it happens. I'd much rather have that particular official call it correctly, but so many just won't. SO - if you're one of those officials who just won't call this, it's FAR better to instead "see" the foul happen right after the TD. Then at the very least, the kid knows he's not going to get away with that kind of nonsense, and the coach rips him a new one (which he deserves) for costing him 15 on the KO or XP.

If you don't flag it the first time, what happens later when the other kid retaliates (or the first kid figures his late hit is acceptable) on a similar play, and seriously hurts someone?

I can see letting a mild block in the back go but I think a personal foul should be handled regardless of the situation.

If in your judgement the foul occured before the runner crossed the goal line, then you must penalize from the spot. NO touchdown, and fifteen yards from where the foul occured.

I think it should too.

But you see people overlook it because of their perception of severity of the penalty. I'd rather THOSE people at least penalize on the succeeding instead of just ignoring or giving it a "Hey, don't do that".

I believe it's of upmost importance for professional officials to make difficult calls, and a personal foul,one where a player could get injured, is one of the most important, regardless of where it happens and when it happens. Our job is not to buffer a kid or program, but to interpret the rules in the spirit of the game in order to create an even playing field. The kids play, coaches coach, fans cheer and we monitor and officiate.

I'd have to see it but I'll nail cherry picking all day long. If it is flagrant, you are missing the rest of this on and all of the next one. I watched a D1 game last week where there was a flag in another county from the play and the R's explanation was that a personal foul was committed on a defenseless person.

This is a live ball foul treated as a dead ball foul. Access penalty yardage on the try.

By "This is a live ball foul" do you mean the original play??
The personal foul occurred before A entered the end zone, so
why do you enforce the yardage on the try? This isn't an unsportsmanlike foul or a non-player foul.

How can you justify that by rule?

Key being when the foul occured. before or after the score...?

If you say live ball foul then no score. If the foul is after the TD...then on extra point. 8-2-2

ART. 2 . . . If during a touchdown-scoring play in which there is no change of possession, a foul by the opponents of the scoring team occurs, the scoring team may accept the results of the play and have a penalty enforced from the succeeding spot. If during a touchdown-scoring play in which there is a change of possession, a foul by the opponents of the scoring team occurs after the change of possession, the scoring team may accept the results of the play and have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot.

My question was directed at cad.

I agree that if it is a live ball foul, no touchdown and penalize from the spot of the personal foul. I had this play two weeks ago. The foul occurred just prior to A going in for the TD. I brought it back (no score) and penalized from the spot, this nullified a 50yd. touchdown run.

I didn't nullify A's touchdown, one of the A players did that when he committed the personal foul.

I'd like to know why cad thinks that he can treat this like a dead ball foul even though it occurred during the down.

hello


thanks for all the help guys, but i recently talked to a rules interperter from another association. the proper procedure for this type of play was explained by the state rules interperter at his clinic, on this type of play. if it has no bearing on the play what so ever this is ruled a personal foul and the player is ejected and the touchdown stands. penalty is marked off on the succeeding play this is the way that type of penalty is handled here in virginia.

Sorry l3will,
You are right and we do agree. I must have missed cad's post...

Can you give me a rule reference on that?

In my little ol' opinion that interpreter is a chicken. Enforce it the way it's supposed to be enforced as any live ball foul and that is by the all but one. I don't know why guys like this won't or don't have the guts to call it back and why they feel they can modify the rule book.

hello again

this is a state mandated rule any personal foul away from the ball and the flow of play is a cheap shot. every coach that has to attend these mandatory meetings so they understand the severity of making a cheap shot away from the ball. we are playing high school football, in the NFL you see this sort of thing all the time. this is not football and thats why it results in a ejection. this ruling came from the state, so you will not see this in the rule book. im quite sure each state is handling this penalty different.

Apparently the "State Interpreter"
is really a "State Re-Interpreter.
On this particular play; there is "No rule to reference" which would award a touchdown on this play. The play as decsribed is a live ball foul and should be assessed accordingly.

I officiate in Virginia and have never heard of this ruling. Can you tell me if this is coming from the VHSL office or a local rules interpreter?

which state? VA?

Thank god our state interpreter confines himself to interpreting actual rules, instead of making them up like they seem to do in VA.

Sorry, but I misread what had occured. There was personal foul behind the ball before it entered the endzone. I would penalize according to the "all but one principle" and penalize 15 yards from the 30 yardline. If this penalty occured after play was blown dead, there would be a penalty administered from B3. If this was a taunt by A or any other unsportsmanlike penalty, this would be live ball foul but administered from the succeeding spot.
I had a situation a few years back where a back was running for a TD and a teamate decided to taunt an opponent. Penalty flag was thrown and offended coach of B argued that TD should not count and we should penalize from the spot where foul occured. We ended up penalizing on the try, B3 abd 15 yards back. If I'm overlooking anything get back to me.

I officiate in Virginia and I have not heard this interpretation!

No, that sounds correct...

Apparently this is fiction. I asked the original poster who issued this ruling and received no response.

REPLY: timharris...I applaud your state's intentions and principles, but not necessarily their methods. If they really want coaches to "...understand the severity of making a cheap shot away from the ball," what's the better way to do it: (1) allow them to keep the TD and penalize 15 yards on the try, or (2) really allow them to feel the pain and penalize it as a live-ball foul which negates their score?

Bob M. So far no one else from Virginia has heard of such a ruling. I suspect it comes from someone not in a position to speak for the VHSL.