I get in this discussion alot. On my crew myself, the referee, and my umpire use a thumbs up signal to indiacte we have 11 on offense and thumbs down for 10 or less.

I picked that up years ago while working in the East Bay CA area from some really good college officials. Well, here on Long Island, NY they use the fist signal to indicate eleven.

Of course, my question is how do you indicate less than 11? No signal may be that either R or U has simply forgot.

Appreciate hearing ideas both ways.

Lately I've been using fist and L-shaped elbow pointed in the general direction of the team I'm counting (usually B, as I'm L in 2-man).

I was taught to go thumbs down in that direction on 10 and to toss the flag on the snap at 12 (after counting again to make sure).

As the R, the U and I hold our fists at chest level per the Official's Manual (Fed). We are thumbs up for >11 and thumbs down for <11.

I watched a college crew last week and the R and U gave each other the Inadvertant Whistle signal, extending their fists straight out at arms length.

The signal for 10 (or fewer) that we're taught up here is to put both hands, fully open, on your chest - 10 fingers. For 11, we use the raised fist to one side of our body (straight in front makes it tough to see).

For 11, we just hold a fist out.

For less than 11, we point down and twist our finger. Like drilling down.

For more than 11, just like less than 11, but pointing up instead.

Both officials (R and U) can't forget to count. It's got to become so presnap automatic that you don't even know you are doing it.

I don't like the thumb-up vs thumb-down signal. On poorly light fields, it's hard to discriminate between the two from the wing position as we look for this from the "R"
Just a simple fist will do for 11, and an open hand (or both hand) to the chest will do for 10 or less.

A fist for 11, nothing for 10, and a flag for 12 or more

Fist extended for 11. 5-fingers on the chest for 10 and 2 fingers on the chest for 12, with flag if they are about to snap with 12 and no one is going off.

Fist extended for 11 or less. Don't care if they have 10. Wide guys will handle that if it results in < 7 on LOS. I don't believe we should be tipping either team that they don't have enough players on the field, especially at the varsity level and I believe a different signal for < 11 may do that.

For the guys who have a separate signal for < 11, what is the purpose of this signal, to communicate to the wide guys to look for illegal formation?

This is my R's belief too. I don't necessarily agree. First, I think signalling 10 is a great help for the wings who may have a hard time counting if there's 7 on the LOS. Secondly, I have a hard time believing that a coach or player is watching us to see if we're going to signal 10 players and then have the wits about them to call a TO or send in another player. Most of the time you can tell them that they don't have enough players and they'll still look at you like you're speaking another language.

Ain't that the truth. Especially on a kickoff.

Had a play Wednesday where B had 10, A ran 70 yards for a touchdown against them. Got to the end zone, someone on B noticed they had 10. I said, "This game is hard with 11, gentlemen. It's even harder with 10." And they still didn't get another guy on for the try, so they gave up 2 more points.

Fist out for 10, twirly finger up for more, twirly down for less.

Elbow down and fist up by right shoulder if 11, thumb down in 10, and thumb up if 12 while I recount and then a flag. All this is done before the offense ever gets to the LOS.

I don't understand the "don't want to signal 10 part?" 1 out of 500 teams might look at you to see if you give a signal for less than 10 so why does that matter? Why would they care anyway if the offense only has 10? What difference does it make to the defense? More important than the defense knowing is that the everyone is looking to make sure there is 7 on the LOS. SOMEONE had better have that call. I am going to be looking to see if I can notice they have 7 on the line and will have a flag myself if that is the case. I would assume I will have a flag from my wings as well, but if not, mine will be there.

I really hope what you guys meant, and I am sure you did but forgot to include it, is flag and kill when you count 12 and no one is heading off. If 12 is in the act of leaving the field, you let him go. If he leaves the field before the snap, he's ok. I'm pretty sure that is what you meant.

As for signs, we use thumbs up for 11, rolling fists for 12. This tells the HL and BJ that I counted 12, I am counting again and that they should let me know what they counted. Sometimes we make a mistake counting and it's nice to know someone else has 12 also. For 10, thumbs down.

First, if either R or U has ten, the other official checks to confirm.

If you have less than 11, then four line up in the backfield, you have an illegal formation. BTW, as R I count the number of players in the backfield.

With less than eleven and three line up in the backfield there is no foul.

I always check the wings signals to know if a player on the end of the line is a back.

[Edited by Ed Hickland on Oct 14th, 2005 at 09:36 AM]

Man, if they're watching for my fist, no wonder they only have 10 or 12 guys in the game.

Maybe we should make up some signals that mean nothing just to throw people off. They'll think they should steal second or something. :)

Fist extended parallel to ground for 11 players, both hands spread on chest for 10 players and no signal for 12.

As for why we signal 10, confirming that count with each other makes certain that (a) we didn't just forget to count, and (b) we don't launch a flag and shut the play down when a defender runs on just before the snap.

We had a situation Friday night where A had a 12 player come in the game and no one left. We were ready to flag them for illegal substitution when A realized the problem and called a time out. Even though the replaced player did not leave within 3 - 5 seconds, we waited a bit and let them buy their way out of trouble by using a TO. To me, that's punishment enough.

Man, if they're watching for my fist, no wonder they only have 10 or 12 guys in the game.

Maybe we should make up some signals that mean nothing just to throw people off. They'll think they should steal second or something.

They are looking for the other local signals which they know are problems. If you don't think they know that you are not up with current coaching.

Exactly Ed..

I probably should have said so, but if and when the R shows 10 us on the field, the other wing and I start some quick checks..
First check is how many backs, second check if we see 4 is how many players are on the line. We never worry about unbalanced at all, (that's a don't care too us).
It works if religiously followed and that means R&U don't screw it up to start with.

FWIW, this is why I like the college mechanic for counting linemen much better than anything else. The H and L don't need to look for R & U to be signalling 11 - they just count linemen on their side of the snapper.

The mechanic, as I've seen it, is: With three, do nothing. With four, put four fingers against your cheek. With two, hold out two fingers. If one wing has two, and the other doesn't have four, you've got a flag.