K 4-12 @ R45. K1's punt is rolling on R's 16 when an inadvertent whistle sounds. R77 blocks K89 in the backon R's 22-yard line during the down prior to the whistle. Ruling:

IW during loose ball play. Replay and enforce any penalites occuring prior to the IW. K's ball 4/2 @ R35

Off top of head, I think IW's are ignored if there is an accepted penalty. If true, sounds like a PSK, enforce from end of kick. (I would say end of kick is the 16, so back em up to the 8)

[Edited by ChickenOfNC on Oct 5th, 2005 at 12:59 PM]

Careful saying must replay if loose ball play. A loose ball play is also the run preceding a legal or illegal kick, legal pass, or fumble, and the team in possession would have some options here.

You are correct that in "this case" it must be replayed, but that is not the case for all loose ball plays

There was no end of kick, so this is not an option.

Hey, I'm a new official. I like responding with my first instinct, just to see how far off base I am on these situations.

Preciate the feedback.

I assume the play was killed when the IW occurred. Wouldn't that spot (the 16) be the end of the kick? Seems that all the requirements of PSK are met here, right?

"If an inadvertant whistle occurs during a down in which a foul occurs prior to the inadvertant whistle, and the penalty is accepted, the IW is ignored"
4-2-3c

That's where my thinking came from.

[Edited by ChickenOfNC on Oct 5th, 2005 at 02:04 PM]

I think it is good to go for what you have off the top of your head and see if you are right.

List what the requirments are for a PSK even if you have to look them up....

So, you know you have two opition...
1) if the penalty is accepted
2) if the penalty is declined
but what do you do for each one?




[Edited by tpaul on Oct 5th, 2005 at 02:37 PM]

OK, here goes

1. Punt beyond ENZ,
2. Foul by R beyond NZ
3. During kick
4. K will not be the next to put ball in play

If penalty accepted, I go with my original thought, the IW is ignored and all the above PSK req. are met.

If declined, you have a IW on a loose ball play, rekick.

I agree with if declined....

It does not meet the requirments of a PSK.
-------------------------------------------
g. Post-scrimmage kick - a foul by R when the foul occurs:

1. During scrimmage kick plays, other than a try or successful field goal.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.
3. Beyond the expanded neutral zone.
<B><U>4. Before the end of a kick.</B></U>
5. And K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends and will not be next to put the ball in play.
------------------------------------------------------
So, now we know it doesn't meet the PSK rule, how do you enforce it?

In the NFL, they do not have IW rules like NF, so they go with the spot of the ball and it is dead, but in NF this would have to be rekicked.

I don't think PSK was met cuz K was still in team possession at the end of the down, the time of the IW.

I agree PSK was not met...

The foul did occur before the end of the kick.

I think PSK is not met cuz K is still in team possession when the IW. This is not the same as K downing the ball, the ball was never possessed by either team, and when the IW occurs it is not the same as if no team was in possession of a ball that is at rest, therefore I think our only option is to rekick.

Right R did not possess it. But what if the penalty is accepted? under NFHS rules the penalty over rules the IW.

Disclaimer - I'm an NCAA guy, and my entire knowledge of FED rules is from here.

However, I think you have reason and rule support (and logic) to support the idea of waiving off the IW in favor of the penalty. The rule says before the end of the kick - and the penalty did happen before the end of the kick, in the sense that when the penalty occurred, the kick was still ongoing. I don't think the fact that you have no official "end of kick" spot of the ball has any bearing.

As to K "having possession", while they may be the team "of offense" at the time of the IW, they certainly didn't have possession of the ball. Also, since you can't assume any action (such as a muff or fumble) after the IW, you can't assume that K would have the ball at the end of the play. In fact, logic would say that it would have been R's ball had the IW not occurred.

the interp I'm reading here seems to force the IW to negate the penalty - surely not the intent of the any of the rules I've read hear.

Ok, i can see that element of psk is missing.

I can say this forum is very very helpful for a new guy. I think there is no better way to learn than going through these situations.

But, this is different than any case play in 4-2-3. There is no PSK spot to enforce it from cuz there is not EOK, so the only option is to rekick. The IW caused there to be no EOK, so you must rekick. No way are you going to give K the option to have R's BIB enforced from the PS.

4-3-2-A says "the down shall be replayed the IW occurs during a legal kick." I know what 4-2-3 says about if a penalty is accepted, but you have no enforcement spot.

I think you MUST rekick. I don't see us asking K if they want to accept R's foul, we will administer it from the PS, which is the only option. This is what PSK was put in for. If K is giving up the ball by a scrimmage kick, they should not get it back so easily. The IW screwed R of the PSK, so rekick is the only option.

tpaul, you have my thoughts, what are yours?

The IW is screwing K, not R.

Could you not use the spot where the ball was at the point of the IW as your end of kick... after all, the ball is ruled dead the moment an IW blows, and the spot where the ball was when it is ruled dead would be, in this case, the end of the kick.

The NLF uses the spot of the ball at the whistle, but they have no IW rules like the NF. That is not an option in NF and that is why I think the only option is to rekick.

The point is, one team would gain an advantage cuz of the IW, and is not supposed to happen. There was not a player in possession, or a loose ball after player possession to go back to. I see no other option.

REPLY: mcrowder...both Federation and NCAA rules concur that when the ball is kicked (or otherwise loose) it is in possession of the team that last had player possession. Therefore, in this play, K was definitely in possession when the whistle was blown. And they would next be putting the ball in play. That's the real reason that PSK doesn't apply. Does R get shafted by an IW in this situation? You bet, but that's just an indication of how ugly an IW can really be.

For a loose ball ,team possession is the team that last possessed the ball

ChickenOfNC
Oh, I agree I to love this forum....good way to air out our thoughts and I rather be wrong on this forum then on the football field.

MJT,
I love your thinking, it makes so much sense but the rule book doesn't follow such logic.

Because of the IW. We have a scrimmage kick which by rule is a loose ball play. Since PSK does not cover this we must go back to PS and enforce the penalty there.

Thus we have K 4-2 @ R35

Please see Case book play 4-2-3 sit E, also check 2-16-2G & 4-2-3

Well, I guess that shows that I did not look in the case book for my argument. That is nasty considering this is the exact reason PSK was implimented. I guess this is one more reason why we need to keep the whistle out of our mouths until we see the ball in possession of a player who is down.

I'll add my .02 cents worth only because I love to quote a phrase I learned a a number of years ago.

"the best thing that can happen to an official who blows an IW is for there to be a foul and the penalty is accepted, the whistle is ignored".

Note this phrase applies to the official, but not necessarily to a specific team. He most certainly will make one of the teams unhappy.

Specficially in the case of an IW during a scrimmage kick and there is a foul by team-R before the kick ends.
Fact... decline the penalty and K will re-kick
Fact... PSK does not apply on this play
Fact... accept the penalty and enforce the the yardage against team-R from the previous spot.
Fact... Team-K may just have made a first down as a result.
Fact... Team-Rs coach is going to be ticked off.

commit this to memory, better yet don't blow the whistle

One thing I want to add to the discussion as a symantic that I remind my R of when he is giving the options.

K is under no obligation to rekick, they are entitled to replay the down. We have actually had that happen before where the Ref told an R captain that he could accept the result of the play or K would have to re-kick. Captain took that literally and when K did faked the kick and make the LTG, R's captain and coach protested that the Ref had informed them that K was required to re-kick!

Funny story but a good reminder to be very clear with the offended captain's options.

MJT is correct in his statement that K was in team possession when the IW occurred. Football Fundamental
I. POSSESSION 3. A loose ball is in possession of the team whose player was last in possession. Because the IW occurred while the ball was loose during a legal kick, the down will be replayed. However, in the play there was a foul by R which did not meet the requirements of PSK. If K declines the penalty they replay the down from the previous spot. If they accept the penalty, the IW is ignored and R would have the ball 4th and 2. They would then have the option of kicking or attempting to make the first down.

[Edited by golfnref on Oct 5th, 2005 at 10:50 PM]

Good story, BullDog. That's an excellent reminder that we all have to be very careful about how we phrase things on the field.

I can't imagine that any Referee would say to the offense that you have to "rekick" again when a down is being replayed.

Does this same Ref tell the team on other downs that they will have run their pass play again or they have to run their sweep play again after enforcement of their penalty?

Must have have been a pop warner level official.

I have had to remind R's are all levels. Look at the wording of all the posts above that caused me to post the gentle reminder. Even experienced R's can slip up, that is why we always have one of the other officials, usually the U, standing with them to hear the options and make sure we get it right.

[Edit: I went back through and counted 7 times that someone used the word "re-kick" as an option, including you Theisey. I am not saying the Ref told K they had to re-kick, I am saying that the Ref used the term 're-kick' instead of 'replay the down' when giving options to R. "R captain, we had an illegal formation on K, your options are decline the penalty and take the result of the play which is {result} or you may accept the penalty, we will go back to the original line of scrimmage, back K up 5 yards and they..." So you have never heard a referee say re-kick in this situation? We should say "will repeat 4th down." but I have heard "will rekick." enough times that hearing it 7 times in this thread triggered a response in me.]

[Edited by BulldogMcC on Oct 6th, 2005 at 09:37 PM]

OK Guys, I agree that we go back to the previous spot. Since R did not posses the ball at the end of the down PSK is not a factor.

Now, if the penalty gives K a new series when do we start the clock & why?

Start it on the ready regardless of whether K gets a new series, we stopped if for the IW & penalty, the penalty causes us to ignore the IW. No team was awarded a new series after a legal kick because you don't award a new series until you take into account all live ball fouls.

3-4-2 The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free-kick if the clock was stopped:
c) Because of an inadvertent whistle.