If A breaks a huddle with 12, do you flag it dead ball substitution, or let snap ensue, and flag the 15 yd live ball participation? This has come up in association meetings over here, and we have been told to flag dead ball substitution.

J

You flag it as dead ball. The only reason you'd let it go live is that you didn't catch the 12th guy until after the snap.

Edited: You wouldn't necessarily flag it if they broke the huddle with 12, but you would if the replaced player didn't leave the field immediately.

[Edited by schwinn on Sep 29th, 2005 at 03:58 PM]

Remember in fed rule it is not illegal to break the huddle with 12. I hate hearing this on friday nights. If A12 subs late then the replaced player A11 should be allowed to leave the field immediately/timely manner. The offense is given time to complete their substitution(s). No where in the fed is the term "breaking the huddle with 12"

If they break the huddle with 12 I'm throwing a flag for having 12 in the huddle. No chance to run off the field in this case. Clear cut violation.

MN, unless you work NCAA rules, then you are simply wrong here. FED rules do not make it illegal to break a huddle with 12.

The "BREAKING THE HUDDLE WITH 12" was to try and keep the situational substitution under control. Thus not allowing the offense to take advantage by confusing the defense. As the white hat in my crew i have to use some common sense as to why the sub came in late and is it the intent of the offense to take advantage of the rule.

The KEY to me as that sub comes in is:
A. Yelling out who he is coming in for
B. The replaced player does not hesitate and starts to the sideline.

You must allow the offense to complete their substitution in a timely manner without undo delay.

I think my purpose this fall is to remove this phrase from every HS official's vocabulary. I am getting very frustrated with how prevalent this phrase has become.
To expand on what BoBo said, the common interpretation of the substitution rule is 3-5 seconds for the word "immediately."
Granted, 5 seconds is long, but just because a sub comes in and makes 12 in the huddle, doesn't mean you have a foul. Same as if 12 comes on and gets to the huddle, huddle breaks, and replaced player leaves. Not a foul. Keep one word in mind here, deception. That's the intent of the rule.

Save yourself the trouble and call the illegal subsitution. Our evaluators give negative marks if we let a play go with 12. Have yet to find that breaking a huddle with 12 in the book as a foul???

That's because in fedlandia, it's not a foul. You won't find it at all.

Another reason I like working here in Texas - breaking with 12 is a foul. Very easy to call.

Why should 12 leaving the huddle be a foul? If your only justification is because the NCAA does it, that does not seem like a very good reason.

Peace

Duh, Texas uses NCAA rules. As does Mass.

grant beat me to it. I think "Because the NCAA does it" is a perfectly good reason, since I'm told to officiate by NCAA rules, not Fed.

Another big rules misconception, by officials too! I can't tell you how many times I've heard an official say "you broke the huddle with 12 coach." I just don't get it.

The rule in question,3.7.1, requiring a replace player to leave "immediately" does not differentiate between offense and defense. It applies equally. I have seen this called many times on the offense but never on the defense. It seems to me the defense has more trouble completing substitutions than the offense. To not apply the rule equally to both teams A and B is a misunderstanding of the rule and its intent. I agree with BoBo, if there is no intent to deceive, let it go.

I don't do NCAA but is breaking the huddle apply to both offense and defense?