Is a formation call (not enough on LOS) a live or dead ball foul?

I am a 3rd year (rookie) U and White Hat

J

It is a live ball foul both in NFHS and NCAA. The foul occurs simultaneously with the snap, hence cannot be a dead ball foul.

live ball, the ball being snapped while 6 men on the line is the penalty. Of course, as an official, you recognize this, you cannot kill the play due to the Offense could scoot someone up to the line.

REPLY: Just remember that any rules that say a team must satisfy some requirement "at the snap" (e.g. motion, shift, formation, numbering) means that you cannot determine whether or not they've complied until the snap actually occurs. As irefky said, they could always correct the situation...or they could call a TO to regroup. The foul occurs simultaneously with the snap. As a result, penalties for such fouls are enforced from the previous spot.

As an aside to this....I had quite a few plays in my first game where offensive line looked like a V with the tackle way off the ball. What is a good reference point where I can say...yep he's too far back and is no longer on the LOS?

The waist of the snapper.

As it says in the Rule book and Case book, it is the plane created by the waist of the snapper. So even the split end has to have some part of this body penetrating this plane of the center's waist.

2-30-2: A back is any A player who has no part of his body breaking the plane of an imaginary line drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the waist of the nearest teammate who is legally on the line, except for the player under the snapper, who is also considered a back.

Actually, it's not the snapper's waist, it's the waist of the person closest to them. That's why you can have a very defined V formation, where the end may be behind the waist of the snapper, and is still considered to be on the line as long as he is through the waist of the person closest to him.

Sorry W&S, but you're confusing the definitions of a back and a lineman. You CANNOT have a defined V formation without someone being in "no man's land" (neither a back or a lineman)

2-30-3...A back is any A player who has no part of his body breaking the plane of an imaginary line drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the waist of the nearest teammate who is legally on the line, except for the player under the snapper, who is also considered a back.

2-30-9...A lineman is any A player who is facing his opponent's goal line with the line of his shoulders approximately parallel thereto and with his head or foot breaking an imaginary plane drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the waist of the snapper when the ball is snapped.

[Edited by Patton on Sep 30th, 2005 at 01:19 PM]

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever made the call that an A player lined up in "no man's land?" I know all us wings have made the call that the offense does not have enough guys on the LOS, but ever an illegal formation call for a man who is neither off nor on the line?

REPLY: 27 years...and I have never made that call.

I wouldn't make that call either, but I would suggest having a discussion with someone. I did hear about it being called, during a coach's radio show, and the flag brought back the GWTD. He was none too thrilled. One of those, 'this is the first time it's ever been called on us....' things.