ok guys question number 3

On 4th and 12 from the B 30 yd. line, A5’s pass is intercepted by B9 at the B 18. During the runback (a) B9 is hit and fumbles, and A1 recovers at the B 24, or (b) B9 hands the ball forward to B8 who is at the B 22 yd. line, and B8 is downed at the B 28 yd. line, or (c) B9 hands the ball forward to B8 who is at the B 22 yd. line but B8 botches the exchange and then falls on the loose ball at the B 28 yd. line. Whose ball, are there any fouls, and what is the down?

a) A's ball first and ten at the B24
b) illegal handing 7.3.2 - first and ten for B at the
B 17 if the penalty is accepted, if declined the B's ball first and ten at the 28.
c) botches (pass?).... I assume not... still illegal handing...
reference 2.19.1 ... it is a fumble ... same results as b)

2.19.1 .... Handing the ball is transferring player possession from one player to a teammate in such a way that the ball is still in contact with the first player when it is touched by the teammate. Handing the ball is not a pass. Loss of player possession by unsuccessful execution of attempted handing is a fumble.

same here ....

Attempted handing of the ball is not forward handing. Just because he tried to hand the ball forward does not make it a foul. If he threw it forward then it was an illegal forward pass. If he handed it forward, the ball was transfered from one player to another without flying through the air, then it is illegal handing. If it was an attempt to hand the ball forward but it was dropped before the second player could gain possession then it is just a fumble. 2-19-1 is the rules reference. In (c) it is B's ball on B-28.

Agreed that it is indeed a fumble, but it is also a foul for illegal handing if the attempt is forward.

So if you don't call it a foul then A could benefit by the fact that he messed up the handing it forward. Example, A's ball at the 50, A1 advances to B's 40, where he attempts to hand the ball forward to A2. This results in a fumble that rolls forward to B's 35 where A3 recovers.

ref. 2.19.2 Forward handing occurs when the runner releases the ball when the entire ball is beyond the yard line where the runner is positioned.

Wrong. It is not illegal handing unless the transfer takes place.

Please square with 2.19.1, 2.19.2, and 7.3.2.
I take the "botches" in the original play to mean that A1 did indeed hand the ball forward to A2. This means to me that the ball was in contact with A1 and A2 at the same time, and that A1 was trying to hand the ball forward to A2, who for whatever reason never or did have possession of the ball.

I take 2.19.1 to mean that it is not a pass when the attempt goes to the ground.

Depending how you parse 2.19.1 I think you could rule it either way. If you parse it to say that A2 must actually possess it to get that flag, then I guess I'm okay with it.

If A2 ever had possession of the ball, then I think you have to call a foul. But then it wouldn't be "botched", just a plain old fumble.

Can I see it? Then I might be able to rule on it! ;)

After reading and reading rule 2.19.1 over and over... I agree that transfer of player possession from the hander to the "handee" must occur for it to be handing... either forward or backward.

So back to A1 attempts to hand the ball forward to A2.

If "botches" means A2 never had player possession, then it
is not illegal handing, just a plain old fumble.

If "botches" means A2 had player possession at all, then loses the handle, then we have illegal handing and a fumble.. live ball foul.

At least I learned something in all of this. ;) Always a good thing. ;)

Isn't it amazing that in this case if the player doesn't have the skill to complete the illegal act it is legal even though an illegal act was attepmted. One more time where intent is outweighed by the outcome of the act.