K's ball 4th & 8 at the K-40. K scrimmage kicks and K2 first touches the kick at the R-30 and the ball continues to roll toward R's goal. R1 blocks below the waist at the
R-35. Then the back judge has an inadverent whistle.

What is the next down and for whom?

I'll admit I'm taking "stab" at this.

FT is ignored since R fouled during the down. Now is where it gets interesting. I'd say this is NOT PSK because R is not in final possession of the ball so therefore it's a foul by R during loose-ball play while K is still in possession.

K has the penalty option. If accepted disgregard the IW and K gets a first down at R's 45. If declined, which they won't do, replay the down as an IW occurred during a kick.

I like the LJs answer.

A saying I like to keep in the back of my mind is from a published document which goes something like this. The best thing that can happen to the official during a down that has an IW, is for a foul to have occurred and have it be accepted.

Isn't the basic premise of PSK that team possession changes at the time of the kick? I know it isn't spelled out that way, but without that thought then PSK could not be enforced on any kick that was not physically possessed by an R player (such as a kick that enters R's end zone).

An IW during a scrimmage kick effectively kills the notion of PSK enforcement.

Rule 4-2-3 a
 

Inadvertent whistle. during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, if an inadvertent whistle occurs while:

a. A legal forward pass or snap is in flight, or during a legal kick, the down shall be replayed.

comment- If an inadvertent whistle occurs during a down in which a foul occurs prior to the inadvertent whistle, and the penalty is accepted, the inadvertent whistle is ignored.

Agree with Middleman on this one. PSK is in effect, penalize from the end of the kick (where ever between 30 & GL)if the penalty is accepted. Replay the down if declined.

[Edited by dumbref on Sep 9th, 2005 at 11:02 AM]

Team possession has not changed. The PSK was put in there (in part) because A had made a strategic decision to give up their rights to the ball via a punt. But, K is still technically in possession until the down ends. Someone may be able to explain this better than me but if this happens during my game I'm enforcing the way I originally posted.

R is getting screwed here, pre-PSK style, since without the IW, PSK would have applied.

But them's the rules!!

Yes, PSK is in effect. The down ended with the IW. This is no different than the ball rolling to a stop and declared dead with no attempt by R to gain possession or the ball being kicked OOB. It's still a PSK situation. K is not going to be in possession after the down is over, they gave it up with the kick.
I believe what you have instead is the interesting situation of whether K wishes to accept the penalty. If they do, standard PSK applies. If they do not, you now have an IW during a looseball play, which means you replay the down. Could happen depending on the kick, where the foul happened & what kind of field position that may generate after the PSK enforcment.

REPLY: Though this is a pretty thorny one and arguments can probably be made both ways (PSK or not) I'm with ljudge and Theisey on this one. When the whistle sounds, K is in team possession. Think about it this way: If there was no foul, who would be in possession (i.e. next entitled to snap) when the IW sounded? As Andrew said, I believe R gets screwed because of the official's blunder, but...

Where would rule the basic spot to be for this play?

If we say the spot where the ball was when the IW sounded, we are hurting K. The ball might have traveled another 20 or 30 yards. The PSK spot is the spot where the kick ends, but with an IW, there is no equitable way to determine that spot.

Also, we can't assume that R would have retained possession of the ball. They could have muffed the kick or turned it over with a fumble.

I don't think we can apply PSK to this play. K is getting a gift but R should not have fouled. Absent the foul, the down would have been replayed.

[Edited by mikesears on Sep 9th, 2005 at 12:14 PM]

Almost this exact play is in the casebook. 4.2.3 pg 32. K's ball 4th and 12 on R's 45 yard line. K8's punt is rolling on R's 16 when an inadvertant whistle sounds. R76 blocks K84 in the back on R's 22 yrd line during the down prior to the whistle. Ruling: If the penalty is accepted, the foul negates the inadvertant whistle and results in a previous spot enforcement. If the penalty is declined, the inadvertant whistle during a loose ball dictates a replay the down.

This may be long winded but a long time ago the NCAA rule (and I guess the NF rule) said that possession changed as soon as the ball was kicked. In a Notre Dame - Air Force game in the late 50's, ND missed a field goal but Air Force fouled. The officials gave the ball back to ND with a penalty and ND then kicked the winning field goal with seconds left. It turned out the ref messed up and the ball should not have been given back to ND because they had given up possession. It brought up the ridiculousness of the situation that, under those rules, K was scoring on a field goal with a ball that was technically in R's possession. The rule was changed the next year so that K retained possession until the kick ended.

That change brought up all of the problems that PSK was supposed to address. K kicks and R commits a foul while the ball is bouncing around and the ball goes back to K. PSK was put in to fix the enforcement problems but it did not change the definition that a kick is in K's possession until it ends. .

The way I see it, the play ended (because of the IW) with K in legal possession of the ball, therefore, no PSK.

And no, I'm not that old. My father was a college official and I learned the story from him.

Another FED inconsistency.

I have to thank keystoneref for doing my research for me. I was not looking at that new casebook play. I was looking at 10.4.3 situation F.

Now, please tell me ... who is in team possession at the time the ball became dead in 10.4.3.F? For a scrimmage kick, who is in team possession when the kick goes out of bounds between the goal lines? Who is in team possession when the ball is at rest and is touched by K? What makes these different from an inadvertent whistle? These occurrences all appear in the same rule - 4-2-2.

4.2.3 Situation F is a bad ruling, inconsistent with similar situations. But who am I to complain? It's typical of the FED, and I should be used to it by now!

Sigh.

4.2.3 SitF: a bad ruling??
Guys we got to get over this hangup and just do what IW provisions require an official to do during a loose ball play..
Either decline the penalty and replay the down or accept the penalty and enforce from the PS.

PSK thoughts are out the window as an IW effectively negates PSK. There is no inconsistency here, it's just an unfortunate result of the IW.

possession of a kick...
 

2.32.2 A ball in team possession is a live ball which is in player possession or one which is loose following loss of such player possession. A live ball is always in possession of a team.

2005 Rule book page 51 - Section 4 Summary of scrimmage kick and free-kick activities.

(about half way down the page)

NOTE: K is in team possession during a kick. A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead by rule. R gains possession of the ball when a player of R catches or recovers the live ball.


Then in the same table...

Kick not recovered by either team belongs to R.

Just read the whole thread, and the NO PSK argument is much better than the PSK, and I would also agree that it is NO PSK.