Can R give a valid fair catch signal BEHIND the netural zone?

The receiver can give a fair catch signal behind the neutral zone. It will not mean anything though, and it is not a foul.

R can only make a fair catch in or beyond the neutral zone on a free kick, and beyond the neutral zone on a scrimmage kick.

I believe the ball should be blown dead, but it is not a fair catch.

Why would you blow it dead?

Fundamental IV.2 "Recievers may catch or recover a kick and advance unless a valid or invalid fair catch signal has been given by any member of the receiving team".

I think there was some discussion on here a while ago about this play. I believe the consensus was that a player who signals for a fair catch behind the neutral zone is not protected and the ball remains live. The signal is neither valid nor invalid because he is not entitled to a fair catch.

My take is that if any R player gives a valid or invalid fair catch signal, regardless of his position on the field, the ball is dead once R gains possession. Unless I'm missing something the rule book is silent on whether a signal given behind the neutral zone causes the ball to become dead. I agree that a fair catch signal (valid or invalid) given behind the neutral zone does not offer the signaller protection.

Picture this scenario: K punts striaght up or very short. R, believing he is beyond the neutral zone, signals and makes a fair catch actually behind the neutral zone. All players of K stop because they assume he is in or beyond the neutral zone and made a fair catch. R, believing the same thing, walks over and hands the ball to the nearest official. If the ball is still alive at that point according to your interpretation the covering official would have to not take the ball and let it fall to the ground still a live ball which you would have to rule a fumble. Doubtful anyone would notice no wistle was blown. What a mess.

If someone gives a fair catch signal, it is either valid according to the definition of a valid fair catch signal. Invalid is everything else. It HAS to be valid or invalid. It can't be a nothing. So back to the fundmental statement that the ball is dead following a valid or invalid signal.

NF - Not all fair catch signals cause the ball to become dead. If a receiver catches a kick and then signals for a fair catch, the ball remains alive. Flag the receiver for an illegal signal but don't kill the play.

That is an illegal signal, which by definition is given by a runner. Has anyone every seen that?
Technically, if R received a punt and ran it back for a touchdown, if he raised and waved one hand just before reaching the goal line, you could have an unsportsmanlike foul as well as an illegal fair catch signal!

REPLY: Back to the original question...the ball will be dead (NF 4-2-2g, I think) when the kick is caught (or recovered). It is not a fair catch behind the NZ, but you also do not ignore the signal.

Theisey...does this sound reminiscent of a long thread back on McGriff's a few years ago. Even though he was from my own association, I never did find out who 'ref100' was.

No, I've never seen a "runner" give the FC signal.
But I can tell you this, should a runner raise his hand up down near the goal line, no way in hell am I flagging him for an Illegal FC signal.

Maybe a UC foul depending on what that hand was doing in the air, but no way is that technically an I-FC signal.

I'd probably give a runner no more than 10 yards down field after receiving the kick and I'd be watching the kick team players reaction. Additional, should he raise his hand up it better be high and be waving else I have nothing.

In case you didn't know, NCAA requires the play be killed at the spot if the illegal signal, but there is no yardage marked off.

Bob, I can't beleive it... I was just about to address that issue! Yes, it was a REF100. I remember the arguments all too well.

I was looking the the rules diff manual to make sure as I know NCAA and NF rule differently.
NF: kill it.
NCAA: let the play continue.

Rule references (NF)
 

2-9-3: A valid fair-catch signal is the extending and lateral waving of one arm, at full arm's length above the head, by any member of the receiving team. <i>(Note: No reference to the field position of the receiver.)</i>

4-2-2g: Following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal given by any member of the receiving team when a scrimmage kick or free kick is caught or recovered by any member of the receiving team beyond, in, or behind the neutral zone.

6-5-5: No receiver may advance the ball after a valid or invalid fair-catch signal has been given by any member of the receiving team.

In short, if R signals and they possess the kick, kill it.

Refresh my memory on the discussion. This must be what I was thinking about.


Question unrelated to my question to Bob.

Would we also flag the signaller if he blocked before the kick ended if he gave a signal while he was in or behind the neutral zone?

4th and 10 at the K-20. K1 punts the ball high but the kick never passes the neutral zone. While the ball is in the air, R1 signals for a fair catch at the K-19. The ball strikes the ground at the K-19 and bounces backwards to the K-15. Seeing that R2 is about to secure the ball, R1 blocks k3 to keep him from getting to the kick. How would we rule on this?