Fourth and 10 on K's 45-yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the neutral zone. R1 muffs the ball back behind the neutral zone where K1 recovers and throws a legal forward pass to K3 which is incomplete. The question is Who's gets to keep possession? K or R?

Ok, I'm 0-1 2nt, but I'll try again. K did not make it to the LTG, so they will not get a new series. Since we had an incomplete pass, the ball will go back to the PS, so 1-10 for B at K's-45.

Legal. K's ball if they make the line to gain (R's 45). This play is right out of the case book, 5.1.3 Situation C, (b).

What makes this play interesting is how close it resembles the play in the 2005 case book 5.1.3 situation C where they describe a similar situation; Its fourth and 10 on K's 45 yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the neutral zone. R1 muffs the ball back behind the neutral zone where K1 recovers, and falls on the ball at K's 40-yard line. In this situation ruling is 1st down for K at K's 40-yard line.

Yeah, but they threw some PI in there just to spice things up.

waltjp, this is not the same play as 5.1.3C as the pass was incomplete. That is what really makes this play different.

(Fundamnetal Statement)If R ever touches a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, it will be 1st down for the team in possession when the down ends.

Even though K threw an incomplete pass after the kick was touched by R beyond the NZ, the ball is still in K's possession. 1st and 10 for K at their 45 yard line. Good luck explaining that one to R's coach.

Agreed. I should have said 'similar'. I was just commenting on the legality of the pass after the kick.

That was my other thought, but want some other responses before going with that for sure.

I agree that even though there was an incomplete pass on 4th down by the team which snapped the ball, it is the touching by R beyond the neutral zone which is the controlling factor on the play. Because of the touching, whoever is in possession of the ball at the end of the play will be awarded a new series.

A fun 10 minutes explaining this one to the head coach.

We discussed this play at our meeting Monday night. Don't know if somebody read it here, it actually developed out of a discussion on the kicking game. We agreed that the ball would belong to K. Our situation was even uglier in that we had the ball rebound back into K's endzone where the incomplete pass was thrown. One thing we pointed out was to check really well for ineligibles downfield, as its almost impossible to imagine this play occurring without some ineligible going down field. In this case we would repeat 4th down after marking off the penalty (at least I hope!)

Wow-
That's an interesting play! I feel like I'm in the movie The Exorcist or something they way my head is spinning! Great example.

The PI foul is administered from the previous spot and not the end of the run?

This is in regards to the Casebook play where it is a complete pass.

[Edited by w_sohl on Aug 25th, 2005 at 12:08 PM]

So in this situation, K gets a free play baring an interception on the pass.

Incomplete pass = 1st down K from K45
Complete Pass less than LTG = 1st down K from end of run
Complete Pass to LTG+ = 1st down K from end of run
Interception = 1st down R from end of run

REPLY: Going back to the original play posted by gtwbam, it will be K's ball 1-10 from the previous spot. The LTG has no more significance in this play once R touches the kick beyond the ENZ.