Play of the day question

[MJT]

This below question is from the Play of the Day- an email sent to you daily with an NF rule question. Most are good basic questions which are good refreshers daily. I included the sign up info below if you are interested.

Fourth and 8 from the 50. K1's punt is high and short. R1, standing at his (a) 46 or (b) 49, gives an invalid fair catch signal, after which he muffs the punt. The muffed punt strikes the ground at R's 45, then bounces back to K's 49, where it is recovered by K2, who advances to R's 40, where he fumbles. R2 recovers K2's fumble at R's 39 and returns the fumble for a touchdown.

POTD
(Play of the Day)

Pass the play of the day along to your fellow officials. For signup instructions goto: http://www.nafoa.net/PlayOfTheDay1.htm

[orioles35]

Is this under FED or USSSA? Were there runners on base?

:-Þ

[andy1033]

If at the 46 this is a psk foul.
if at the 49 this is a illegal signal k will accept 5 yards from previos spot.

[ref18]

This punt only travelled about 10 yards,

1. With the assumption that the ball is landing between the hash marks in a group of players. The play is whistled dead B 1/10 at the point where the ball lands.

2. With the assumption it's outside the hashes or not in a group of players.
a)If there are no off-side K players in a 5 yard radius of the ball when R1 muffs it, the ball is live for anyone to recover.
b) If there are any off-side players in the restraining zone, we have no-yards agaist K, R1/10 applied from the point the ball was muffed..

[DrMooreReferee]

Interesting question...

I think its PSK in BOTH cases, here's why....

If you look in the case book 6.2.6 it talks about kicks with a trajectory such that it cannot be touched until it comes down. In this case, it says the ENZ disintegrates. So, in these 2 cases they would both be PSK fouls. In A, its easy. In B, you have to consider the fact that the ENZ is now gone.

I think this question is a prime example of 6.2.6 in the casebook being applicable.

[Warrenkicker]

But I would say that 6.2.6 covers only touching of the kick by R and whether that equates to the opportunity for K to recover the kick and be awarded a new series.

PSK rules do not say that the ENZ disintegrates but that the foul must occur beyond the ENZ. 2-16-2g

[MJT]

Originally posted by andy1033
If at the 46 this is a psk foul.
if at the 49 this is a illegal signal k will accept 5 yards from previos spot.

Andy has the correct answer.

[DrMooreReferee]

Originally posted by MJT

Andy has the correct answer.

Andy has the correct answer? I'm still looking for an ILLEGAL signal in the question. I doubt I will see one, since no signals were given by a runner.

If you have no expanded neutral zone, how can a foul be beyond it?

[MJT]

Originally posted by DrMooreReferee

Andy has the correct answer? I'm still looking for an ILLEGAL signal in the question. I doubt I will see one, since no signals were given by a runner.

If you have no expanded neutral zone, how can a foul be beyond it?

DrMooreReferee, I am not exactly sure what your question is, but here is the original question, and answer.

Fourth and 8 from the 50. K1's punt is high and short. R1, standing at his (a) 46 or (b) 49, gives an invalid fair catch signal, after which he muffs the punt. The muffed punt strikes the ground at R's 45, then bounces back to K's 49, where it is recovered by K2, who advances to R's 40, where he fumbles. R2 recovers K2's fumble at R's 39 and returns the fumble for a touchdown.

Ruling: In (a), all of the necessary elements for post scrimmage kick penalty enforcement under Rule 2-16-g are present. Therefore, post scrimmage kick penalty enforcement applies. The basic spot for enforcement of the penalty for R1's invalid fair catch signal is the spot where the kick ended, K's 49; however, the foul was committed behind the basic spot at R's 46. Therefore, the penalty for R1's invalid fair catch signal will be enforced from the spot of the foul, and, following enforcement of the penalty, R will put the ball in play, first and 10, from their 41. In (b), one of the necessary elements for post scrimmage kick penalty enforcement is missing, as R1's invalid fair catch signal was not committed beyond the expanded neutral zone. Therefore, in (b), the penalty for R1's invalid fair catch signal will be enforced from the previous spot, making it fourth and 3 for K from R's 45.

[Patton]

DrMooreReferee,

Andy's answer was nearly correct except he accidently typed illegal signal instead of invalid fair catch signal. As Warrenkicker stated, the conditions for PSK say nothing about a disintegrating ENZ. The ENZ exists up until the kick ends for psk purposes.