I'm interested in how some of you would handle botched calls / rulings. This hasn't happened to me yet in working the R position in a varsity game but I dread the day it does. #1 did happen in a JV game with a cadet and I simply waived the flag using rule 1.1.6. I went this way because the defense clearly gained an advantage and the offense still scored despite team B having that advantage. It was the only thing I thought was equitable.

Any way, three examples:

Case 1) Team B jumps into the neutral zone and one of the wing officials goes up with a rag. Team A scores a TD on the play. The LJ comes up and says "I have team B OFFSIDES."

Case 2) On a free kick team K goes beyond the free-kick line. Team R returns the kick to team K's 5. BJ comes to you and says K was in the neutral zone prior to the kick being made.

Case 3) On a try the wings don't notice there's only 10 men in the game and screw up the fact that there's only 6 men on the line until after the play. The try is good.

Obviously cases #1 and 2 warrant a lecture and an earful for the official not knowing the rules, let alone that offsides is an NCAA/NFL term. In case #3 there's a serious communications issue.

I would waive the rag in cases 1 and 2 and drop one in the 3rd. Agree or disagree? If not, why not?

Ljudge, I agree with you on all three cases.

On 1 and 2 these obviously should never have been allowed to get underway and since the officials are the ones who allowed the plays to continue, waive em' off. Now B is going to be pissed because you didn't stop the play and call the penalties on his team, although he probably would have been mad if you had blown these dead, too. Can't win on this one.

Number 3 is a little easier because the illegal formation is a foul at the snap, so letting the play continue is OK. Go ahead and drop the hanky and replay the try. I don't think you'd get to much guff on this.

The first two are scenarios that should probably be gone over in every pregame, especially with new guys.

REPLY: Clearly, none of these situations are good. I think I can go along with you and Opie on situations 2 and 3. But I might disagree with you on Situation #1. When B jumps into the neutral zone, it is entirely possible that players from <u>both</u> teams relaxed anticipating a whistle and a call of some sort. That could be the only reason that A scored. I really think we need to swallow our pride on this one and drop the flag and negate the play. Tough break for A. But it might be exceptionally unfair to B to just allow the score and pretend nothing happened.

I also agree 100%. Waive off the first two cases, because as you stated, the defense gained an advantage and the offense scored anyway. As Opie stated, warrants a good talking to the LJ and BJ. Although not technically correct per the rule book, I believe it meets the intent of the rules of advantage vs. disadvantage.

Third case, live ball foul so drop the flag after for the illegal formation and replay the try.

Case 1 actually happened to me with a rookie official in the very first game I was ever the white hat. Fortunately, it was a Soph level and not a varsity game. I got out of earshot of everyone, explained the situation to the rookie and waived off the flag. No one asked any questions.

Canadian Philosophy
 

Using Canadian rules,

1. The proper procedure is to throw a flag. The Referee will decline the B foul for offside, and award the touchdown.

2. The proper procedure is to throw a flag. The Referee will decline the K foul for offside, and award the forward progress.

3. Edit the stich to mean only 11 players on the field. Being short 1 player means that A may be short 1 player on the line. No infraction has occurred. Play on.

What would be your "words" to the coach when he asked why you are waving off the flag? You gotta tell him something.

On the freekick play, you might get away with it. But on the TD play, it's time to swallow ones pride and call it back. Team-A can't be allowed to score on what should have been a dead ball no play in the first place.

I'm sure this happens more frequently at the JV and lower levels, but hopefully not at the Varsity level where more experienced officials are on the game. That being said, it's more fuel for an NF rule change to allow for these types of fouls to be live ball fouls whit the chance for the fouled team to decline.

I disagree with the consensus in 1 & 2. There was no play. The action that caused the dead ball was the foul. Everything that happened after the foul is moot. Remember the whistle does not stop play. The rules determine when the action ends.

Example:

K kicks off on a free kick prior to the ready for play.

(1) B runs it back for a TD.
(2) B fumbles and A recovers.

According to your logic, would (1) count and (2) not.

The point is, nothing that happened counts. Similarly, everything after the dead ball fouls in your examples is irrelevent. Thoughts?

Some very interesting points. Originally, I gave my "knee jerk" response based upon my previous "bad" experience at lower level contests. I can see both sides of this discussion, particularly Bob M.'s comment about how A may have gained an advantage as B believed a dead ball foul occurred. "After further review" I think you have to take your beatings in case 1 and most likely case 2 and call them back for the dead ball foul.

Taking this one step further, how do you handle the overzealous new official that throws a flag for offensive holding on a scoring play, but his flag is 30 yards away from the play (holding was not near the point of attack and had no influence on the play)?

I think bottom line here is...don't let this happen!

I was taught something early in my career, and that is, there are a lot of things that can happen when a play that should be blown dead isn't, and none of them are good.

How to clean it up if it happens? I think some good points on both sides. Game situation, etc, might be what determines how to handle these.

In my opinion, plays 1 and 2 never happened cuz those penalties should have killed the clock before they ever really started. Bob had a great point, and even if A didn't get an advantage, one of the teams will benifit if you let the play go. No matter what happens, someone would come out ahead. The coach may not be happy, but I think he'll understand.

Play 3 is different cuz it is a live ball foul. You have two choices, let it go, talk about it and don't let it happen again. Probably telling the coach, "we never got the correct count, so we had no flag," or drop it and tell the coach, "we should have had a flag earlier, but it wasn't dropped, we have a late flag now, but it is the correct call." I am not going to lie to the coach, so if we had the count, but didn't have a flag down, I'm laying one down and will personally go talk to him. I am the R, but if we have a screw up, which needs to be addressed with the coach, I will do the talking personally, or accompany the covering official if he wishes to explain it to the coach.

Sounds like the LJ is primed for some NCAA rules. Send him over here to Texas and we'll find a spot for him in our chapter. :)

REPLY: Be careful what you ask for Jason. He might just blow an offsides dead there!

I will go along with Bob M and others - Numbers 1 and 2 should have been blown dead and were indeed dead at the snap.

I disagree on number 3. You can't count from memory. If you let that one go at the snap, forget about it. You can't assume/recreate what you think happened.
It's over, you missed it. Don't let it happen again.

I think the bottom line is- get it right, no matter what amount of pride is lost. Sure we can discuss advantage/disadvantage but I think that if a misapplication comes to our attention, like in 1 and 2, then we need to take our lumps, get it right, and have a talk with the offending official.

Now for the third situation, I've been involved in a few games where this happens. Since R is responsible for counting A, and LJ and LM are responsible for counting B, at times LJ and LM are late checking the number of players on the line on their side of center. There are times where R has thrown the procedure flag at the snap, when he counts 10 A players on field w/ 4 in the backfield. Obviously, this isn't a good situation because LJ and LM should catch this before R does. It shouldn't be R’s responsibility to flag it. But he discussed it with both LJ and LM, made sure that U had 10 A players as well, and got the call right. I think the same philosophy applies to situation 3. Now if it is LJ and LM discussing it after they count 10 A players and the play is over, and recreating the formation at snap from their memory, then that gets sticky. But I still say get it right if possible. With LJ, LM, and R, all checking off their responsibilities (number of A or B players on the field, players on the line, and identifying eligible backs), this should be caught before the snap/play is over.

Getting it right is most important. I can't remember who I heard this from so I won't take credit but it holds well with these situations. "It's always better to look ugly and be right than it is to look good and be wrong" Of course we'd always prefer to look good and be right but sometimes it just don't happen that way. Get it right and move on.

REPLY: Just an note on Play #2. A friend of mine currently works in the NFL and has worked prior to that in the Big East. [Note, this doesn't make me any better of an official; it just gets me access to better information!] Their view on calling this foul is this: If the kick is short--like an onsides kick--call this one very tight. Any part of the kicker breaking the plane of K's restraining line draws a flag. If, however, the kick is deep, be very liberal on the call. Only flag those infractions that are extremely obvious such as when a member of K has <u>stepped</u> beyond his line before the ball is kicked. I know that this is not the same situation as the posted play, but the situation is related and I thought I'd offer it up for you to think about.

Dommer...have you spoken to our "friend" since you got your new assignment??

I will deal with #3 first as it is the "easiest." This is a foul at the snap, and the play would happen anyways. It may not look good, but after the play, discuss the foul, mark it off, explain it to the coach (who will not be too happy), and go from there.

I think in 1 (and 2) we all know that the play is dead before it happens, and no time would futher go off the clock (yadda yadda yadda). The real issue is how do we deal with it.

Specifically for 1, it sounds good to say adavantage, disadvantage, but using that we would have to let all such plays go. Even though it was B who ganied an advantage with the foul (though I think that can be debated in many instances), we could argue in all the other "offsides" (yes, I know the 'inaccuracy' of my vocabulary) situations that no advantage is gained (or A has the chance to "wipe away" that advantage) if they are allowed to run the "free play" (and the can always take the 5 yards later). However as NF officials, we are not going to allow that to happen, and we will blow this play dead. Also, as previously mentioned, the B coach may have seen the foul, and there will be a heck of job explaining why the play happened anyway. Yes, I know you will have a heck of a job explaining the situation to the A coach, but at least you will have the support of the rules in that situation. Either way you have to give bad news, and explain you "screwed up," I suppose I'm inclined to say have the rules on your side when you do it.

With 2, because it could be a much less "visible" foul, I am inclined to wave it off, but again, I don't think you would be wrong calling it back (but, again, obviously you have to be prepared for quite a fun discussion).

GREAT words of wisdom... one to remember at all times, at all levels.

For #1 and #2, I think the play needs to be blown dead. The integrity of the game should be #1. As for #3, if you don't see the foul, then there's no foul. My first game the WH told me not to go to him with a penalty and say "something didn't look right". If you see it, call it. If you don't, then don't.

I think the problem with plays 1 and 2 is that the official who calls the foul is often the only official who "sees" the foul. Definitely on a free kick (play 2), only the BJ would be aware of an encroachment, especially is it was relatively "close." In play 1 the R or U may see the flag, and be pretty sure it is encroachment (and, thus, the play should not take place), but the flag could be for illegal formation, illegal motion, or a bunch of other fouls for which the play is run as "normal," and the R or U (or whomever else) has no business blowing the ball dead.

At the subvarsity level, especially below the JV level, I'm tempted to waive off all of them the first time they happen, followed by a short meeting with my wing guys on proper rules knowledge. If it happens again in the game, the flags stay and the wing official gets to accompany the R to the sideline to listen while I talk to the coach.

At the JV level and without a doubt at the varsity level, the flag stays and after you (the R) explain what happened to the respective coaches, you remind your wings of the rules. As an R, I would have little/no tolerance for these kind of missed calls at the varsity level, especially the first two. Usually there's plenty of time between a touchdown and the try and even though there may be a number of substitutions, there's still time to count the players.

We all know officiating involves game management, using common sense, advantage-disadvantage etc. That being said once we start deciding on enforcements, like in #1 and #2, based on the outcome of the play versus what the rule book will allow-where does it all stop? Re-run the play, eat the criticism and move on.

I agree....perhaps "ru-run" is not the best word, but I can't see "eating" the flag. As myself and others have brought up before, how are you going to explain this to the defensive coach (play 1). Advatage/disadvantage is a valuable "tool," especially, for example, when not calling a hold on the right tackle when the play is a sweep around left end. At a certain point, though, rules are rules, and we will make big trouble for ourselves when we being to decide if certain rules are valid or invalid based on the outcome of the play.