Some time ago I saw in the Forum a discussion on the use of profanity and one of the writers said the state association in Florida was cracking down more strictly on this foul. I believe that I am at odds with some of my fellow officials in that I think profanity must be called whenever it is heard regardless of who it is directed to or if it is in the huddle or where. If I can hear it, it is a foul.

Iey think that some would say that there are exceptions. I agree only if a player is in pain due to an injury and I have called a time out for him to receive assistance.

My thinking is that if I make exceptions, such as when a team is in the huddle, and I can hear what is said the other team can hear it too and if I call a foul on them and not on the team in the huddle, they will assume that I am not inforcing the rule equitably.

I have a meeting with the association on Saturday. They are arguing that the ejection for a second profanity call should not be. I have already agreed to violate the rule and give each team one warnning before I step off a penality.

I'd like to hear from someone in FL to see how did they inforce the rule there and what do the rest of you think.

I honestly haven't research the football philosophy with regard to this situation. But the NFHS is very clear in basektball.

UNSPORTING BEHAVIOR
2.8.1 COMMENT: Unsporting tactics, in general, involve relationships between opponents, between the players and officials, between the spectators and officials, between the players and spectators, between the coaches and spectators, and between coaches and officials. In most situations, it does not apply to the relationship of a player to teammates, nor to the coach and members of the team. However, these standards are not without exception. <B>For example, profanity on the part of a participant, coach or member of the team is considered to be an unsporting act, whether or not the profanity is directed at any individual or is merely a means of “letting off steam.” </b>

Of course, I'm not going to tell you that it's enforced to the letter of the law.

I think you must use common sense when it comes to profanity. If one lineman says to another on the way back to the huddle, "get your damn block" I hope you are not going to flag him. Now if he yells a swear word for all to hear, or says "that was a F****ing hold" to an official, that is another story. I will tell them to watch their language or they may get a flag in most cases, but obviously if they cross the line, no warning is needed. JMHO.

REPLY: If we flagged every occasion of profanity on the field as a USC, there'd be nobody left to play the game...especially at the parochial schools!

Quite an exageration.


It was a POE for Lacrosse last year. Flag all cases is basically what it said.

I find their is a real qualitative difference between the player who mutters, "damn, my knee" while on the field waiting for the trainers and a player who calls an opposing player an "MF SOB."

You can have a 'zero tolerance' policy for swearing, but while one is worthy of 15 yards, I don't find the other one is. I would be tempted to say to a fellow official "you have your own standard, go by that," but on the other hand I think it would be unfair if I let some profanity go, but the BJ throws a flag when a player quitely says "damn" after he drops a pass. Then again, I don't see anyway to make our system consistent. While our association may come up with one standard, what may be OK here, may be a flag in Cleveland, and what is OK there might be penalized in Arizona.

The ones I let go with a warning are those where the kid is injured. If I hear it in a huddle and feel the other team didn't hear it, I'll warn them. If it's broadcast and doesn't fit the above then it's a flag. Quite honestly I would say I only have 2-3 a season.

REPLY: I said that with my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek and it was meant to be a hyperbole. But, I will say that I hear more F-bombs on the sidelines of parochial schools than I do at the public schools. Not directed at anyone, just blirted out. And I have nothing against parochial schools. I'm a product of parochial schooling myself.

profanity
 

Remember, high school athletics are an exetetion of the classroom. Does you school advocates profanity within its buildings????? The Michaigan High School Athletic Association pushs the idea that the athletics is an extention of the classroom.

35 years at HS football here (most at U):
zero tolerance is not common sense.
If I hear an "f-bmb" in normal conversation
between players of the same team, I will just
tell them--- "no f-bombs guys" !
Sometimes I might say to the offender--
"what did you say? " or "did I hear a bad word ?"
That usually is the end of it. If someone yells an expletive
or a derogatory racial slur
at a player of the other team-- it is one of the
rare times I'd pull out my flag, treating that as
I would any personal foul.
The kids today hear bad language all around them
in movies, TV, and on the street.
We cannot condone it, but must use common
sense to keep it under control in a game !

I also go buy that if a kid says it basically to himself I will just give a warning. If I hear it 10/15 yards away, I will flag it as at that point a number of people will have heard it.

I also had a baseball game last year where a kid let out a blare f-bomb. We could not tell who said it to be able to dump him (came from the offensive team dugout), tho I had my suspisions on who did it. Coach handled it. On a football field it is sometimes difficult to point out who actually said something, especially if in a team huddle. You may get the 15 but to actually toss someone may not be possible.

Unsportsmanlike Conduct vs. Personal Foul
 

SWFLguy-
While I agree with you logic of when to throw and when not to throw for clarification purposes (for the younger officials out there), the flag would be for <b>"Unsportsmanlike Conduct"</b> penalty rather than a <b>"Personal Foul,</b> as the action that drew the flag was for a non-contact penalty.
Unsportsmanlike Conduct fouls are <b>always</b> non-contact fouls.
Personal fouls (<u>almost</u>) <b>always</b> require contact.

True that.
I did not mean to confuse newer officials.
I meant that if the words got "personal"
then a penalty is in order.
Thanks for pointing that out.

exactly !!!

Had a situation last year in 12-13 year old football. left defensive end started complaining that he was "tackled" on a touchdown play that was run to the other side of the field. I was at the U in a three man set. As I was trailing the play, I hear "He tackled me." Fifteen yards later I hear "He tackled me." Another 10-15 yards and I hear "He F-ing tackled me." Flag flew about 5 yards into the air. No comments from his coach as I am sure they heard it to.

Does your rules code define EXACTLY which words are unutterable? An F-Bomb is probably universally a curseword. But just about any other word may be taken by some to be a curseword, and some not. "Damn, my knee!" vs "Darn, my knee" - some would call both a curseword - some neither, most of us in between - but if we are to LEGISLATE cursewords on the field, we DAMN well better have a universal standard.

That would make an iteresting list, indeed. I wonder who would come up with such a list? One would hope that it would not be done be committee!

George Carlin?

I see the humor, but I meant what I said seriously.

We have enough problems that develop when one set of officials rules one way, and then another officiates another way. Who hasn't heard, "They didn't call it that way last week" (granted, some of those are lies, but some aren't).

We do ourselves a good deal of harm when we write the rules in such a way that we CAUSE inconsistency in officiating.

I've only been at this a few years, but I got some advice that I tend to agree with on this topic at an association meeting. I know it's been said here before, but the simpler the better as far as I'm concernced.
The basic rule I was taught to use is the direction of the profanity. Player curses because he drops a pass. OK (Unless he is very loud with it).
Player directs his profanity at the other team or one of its coaches or players, flag it.

I know this may be a simplification and there is a lot of grey area, but this is the rule of thumb I go by.

mccrowder I could not agree with you more. The humor such that it was, was not to make light of the fact that there needs to be consistency.

What is Profanity?
 

Having been reared in a religious Kentucky household where the word "shoot" was enough to get admonished, I have closed my ears to all but ethnic slurs.

Today's youngsters hear just about anything and everything on radio, TV and recorded music. How can you possibly punish a player for uttering a word he heard during the "family" hour on national TV?

I agree, Ed. By asking us to rule on profanity, without defining it in specific, they force us to be inconsistent.

I will not flag profanity in an of itself.

I WILL flag unsportsmanlike conduct - whether it includes a curse-word or not. "Hey, #9 - you SUCK!" Flag. "Hey, #9 - you STINK!" Still a flag. But "Oh, Ouch, My Knee!!!" is no flag, and "Oh, F---, My Knee!!!" is also no flag.

We had an incident here two years ago with one team in particular who was really bad. Fortunately I wasn't at the game but apparently it was everything from teachers on the sidelines to the kids and coaches and school administrators just hollering and generally making total fools of themselves. Surprisingly the whole affair ended in a brawl.

The rule then came from our highschool football's provincial body that onfield officials were to show no tolerance whatsoever. Great. Tolerance for what?

During the pregame we're now instructed to remind coaches to keep their teams under control. I take the same liberty at the coin toss with the captains. I use the 'keep it in your helmet' rule. Unless it's some kind of racial slur or something and the kid is basically keeping it to himself then we won't worry too much.

Kinda funny story - we have one quarterback locally who is going to be in grade 12 this year. Frankly he's got some potential but he's going to have to learn to keep his yap shut. He's a captain so he hears my little blurb before every game but in every game right about half way through the third quarter his attention span dries up and blammo - he's hollering profanity to the high heavens. Fast forward to the last game of the season - they weren't going to get to playoffs - kid goes off at about the prescribed time. Coach calls a time out, trades quarterbacks, and our happy yeller was running the track in full equipment for the rest of the game :)

Re: profanity
 

I agree, and I think it's pretty obvious no school is "advocating" the use of profanity. That being said, I can't imagine a teacher (and I don't pretend to be 'in the know' on the policies of teachers) giving a kid detention because he says "damn" when with his friends, or he says the S-word when standing alone by his locker.

Re: Re: profanity
 

My reply was going to be the direct opposite...
If you can't imagine a teacher doing such a thing and the teachers in your schools wouldn't do such a thing, then I'd pull out any kids you care about NOW. Earlier in the thread, someone said something about whether to flag or not when when "a player quitely says 'damn' after he drops a pass". Wow! When I was in high school, if, while the teacher was passing back tests, I got a "C" on mine I said "damn" quietly so she could hear and no one else you think she lets that go without saying anything? I certainly hope not...
Whenever you let something go, no matter how insignificant it may seem, not only are you advocating & allowing it (message to the offender), but you're also conditioning yourself for the future to accept the action as being perfectly OK.

JER

Re: Re: Re: profanity
 

So, do you call every hold you see, even if it by the right tackle as the ball is 3 yards downfield on a sweep to the left side? In BB, should a foul be called every time there is contact on an arm? In baseball, do you keep the strike zone as tight in the JV game as the Varsity game, especially if one team is out decent pitchers and they are down by 14 runs? I hope not! You need to use common sense in all parts of life, on the field, and court as well. On the FB field, it is called advantage/disadvantage, and it is one thing that separates the good and great officials from those who kill the flow of the game with 33 flags, 48 foul calls, or 19 walks.

Re: Re: Re: Re: profanity
 

I want to repeat my point. Profanity is a matter of relevance. Some households with limited language skills the F-word is a noun, adjective, adverb and any other form you can imagine. So do we penalize a player who goes that was a F-ing good hit?

Personally, I resent the big guys behind the desk telling me to penalize every violation of language when there is no concrete definition or can there ever be. Leave it to the discretion of the on-field official.

Re: Re: Re: Re: profanity
 

I won't address the BB & BB questions, because I don't work those sports although I see what you're driving at.
Any good-experiened official will agree with you on the football points you made, but none of them address USC. USC is never an "advantage/disadvantage" situation. Do you call USC because you don't want to lose control of the situatuion and becasue you don't want any fights breaking out (both good reasons), or do you call it because it's just plain wrong?

I also understand what Ed is trying to say about relevance. But the problem is that the field is an extenson of the classroom, and no matter what a student's "acceptable" expressions are at home, there are some that aren't acceptable at school (or at a function therof) and teachers/officials must help to form & mold these students/athletes. For instance, "a$$" used to be a common word for a donkey (it's used in the King James Bible even), but now it has a much different conotation and is considered a "bad word". Conversely, if a strict "Bible-belt" student is prohibited from saying "darn" at home, but says it on the field, feeling that he's being rebellious, so be it. The rules of the field/school have to be followed, not home or church or whatever...

I'd be happy to discuss situatuional ethics with ya'll as friends, but not on a football board--we'll save that for the PYSCH department :)

Once again, let me say this (and you all are proving it by your repsones): Whenever you let something go, no matter how insignificant it may seem at the time, not only are you advocating & allowing it (message to the offender), but you're also conditioning yourself for the future to accept the action as being perfectly OK.

Situation: Jr. high game 2 seasons ago, 3 man crew. Early in the first quarter, HL hears a swear word from a player coming to his sideline and he warns the player that it's not acceptable on the football field. Late 1st quarter, HL hears another word & now warns the coach about his whole team in general. Late 4th quarter after a succesful defensive play, one of those players heading back to the huddle hollors "sh_t!" to no one in particular while walking by an official. U/LJ tosses a flag which moves the home team 15 yards closer to the goal as they try to come back & win the game. Now while I'm not going to argue the case that he should/shouldn't have been flagged in that instance (most of you would probably say no) what I'm trying to get accross to you guys, if nothing else, is if the 1st two instances in the game had not been spoken about (and the appopriate people warned), the 4th quarter flag would have seemed even more ridiculous. Moral: Anytime you have an opporutnity to shape the lives & minds of growing student athletes and you don't do it, you are shirking your reponsibilites as an eduactor & a role model.

I've never given a warning for swearing & had the offender tell me, "but I wasn't saying it toward you or the other team..." These kids are smart--they know it's wrong and they're going to test you on it to see what they can get away with. Like one of the posters here puts in their signature: "if a play (or action) is desgined to fool someone, make sure you aren't the fool" :)

Guys, please don't try to turn something into gospel just because you believe it and follow it (me included). There's lot's of rules that I don't agree with, but if we start deviating from those, then we just make a mockery of who we are & what we represent. Hey, let's make this our best season ever!

JER


[Edited by jransom on Feb 26th, 2005 at 01:03 PM]