A's ball 4th/4 from the 50. A1 runs to B's 40 and throws an incomplete forward pass. Ruling?

I'll take a shot.

The run ended at B's 40 so the line to gain was acheived. The foul for an illegal forward pass is 5 yards and loss of down. Since the line to gain was reached the loss of down is ignored. Penalize A 5 yards from the 40. A's ball 1st and 10 the B's 45.

I agree with IAUMP.

NFHS

This is a running play so the penalty is applied from the basic spot which is, in the case, the end of the run.

5 yards from the end of the run + loss of down.

2nd and 5 from the B 45.

NFHS Fundamental X. 9.: "The loss of down aspect of a penalty has no significance following a change of possession or if the line to gain is reached after enforcement."

However, if it had been 4th and 6, we'd be looking at 1st and 10 for B from B's 45, no?

How did you get from 4th down to 2nd?

*alright - that's it....last time I reply without looking at the scenario...I thought it said 1st and 10 from the 50*

Had it been 4th and 6 we would have 1st and 10 B going out BUT...4th and 4...distance is gained after penalty application...1st and 10 A from the B 45.

[Edited by cdnRef on Dec 10th, 2004 at 09:01 PM]

Canadian Ruling
 

Illegal forward pass, loss of 10 from PLS, down repeated.

3 more!!!!!!

Ref18,

I don't disagree with your call - this is just a converstational question...

What would you have done if A had lined up in a punt formation and the punter was A1 who was scrambling and threw the pass at the B 40?

Here's the reason for my question - the definition of a forward pass in Canadian ball is "a ball thrown in any manner from behind the LOS toward the opponent's dead ball line" while the definition of an offside pass is, "a ball directed in any manner toward the opponent's dead ball line and the point of point of termination is closer than the point of origin of the pass"

Do you think there is any case to be made for an offside pass? If so, where is the point of application? I know what the rulebook says in 6-3-4 about a passer crossing the line of scrimmage and throwing what is clearly intended to be a forward pass but I've always maintained (and never had anybody agree with me) that if a passer assumes the position of a runner during the play (that is, tucks the ball under and runs) then changes his mind somewhere beyond the LOS and throws the ball downfield that it's an offside pass - not an illegal forward pass.

(sorry to scramble the brains of American officials ... the offside pass is an integral part of why I think the Canadian game is a superior sport but also very hard to officiate)

Canadian Philosophy
 

It is known that the two flags - an offside pass flag and an illegal forward pass flag can often be reason for discussion.

The philosphy behind the two is that passes thrown forward over the line of scrimmage are offside passes subject to penalty, UNLESS the player was obviously intending to throw a forward pass (rule 6, section 3, article 4, paragraph 4).

It the original situation, the line to gain was achieved, and an additional 6 yards was gained. At this point, the player has to know that a forward pass beyond the LS is illegal, and therefore is not treated as an illegal forward pass, but rather as an offside pass.

How do you penalize an offside pass? You flag the spot of foul and let the play continue.

If a whistle went (perhaps because a covering official thought an incomplete legal forward pass was thrown) then we have an inadvertant whistle:

- if the ball was in A's possession, at the time of the IW, B's choice (i) A1D/10 @ SF (flag accepted), or (ii) A1D/10 @ PBD (flag declined)

- if the ball was in B's possession, at the time of the IW,
B's choice (i) A1D/10 @ SF (flag accepted), or (ii) B1D/10 @ PBD (flag declined)

- if the ball was loose at the time of the IW, it goes back to the team that last had it at the spot they last had it, and then B's choice (i) A1D/10 @ SF (flag accepted), or (ii) A1D/10 @ PPL (point possession was lost), which i slikely the same as (i)

If a whistle has not gone, then it is just a live ball, and A can recover subject to penalty, or B can recover.

That's my understanding of the sitch. Comments?

You've hit on the essence of what I was trying to bring up.

The only thing is that an offside pass is NOT a foul by definition - it's an offside pass. The recovery of said pass by an inelgible player is what creates a foul.

I would personally prefer to see the spot of the pass beanbagged instead of flagged but either way - a flag can always be picked up :)

i.e. any B player can recover an offside pass, or an onside A player can recover the offside pass

You yanks wanna play Canadian ball now? :)

Re: Canadian Philosophy
 

I never thought of it that way.

[Canadian Ruling]

One minor change to HFOA's result in that onside players cannot recover offside passes that are as a result of the ball being thrown forward (sorry do not have my rule book here for reference.)

Also, I think that we should flag all offside passes even though they are not fouls. Otherwise, you will have a hard time selling the Team A caoch on the fact that you may be taking away his touchdown. No flag usually indicates that touchdowns will stand. Imagine explaining to the coach that "coach there is no laundry on the field but your touchdown is being called back anyway..."

In my mind, offside passes have penalties and so the flag indicates that we may have a penalty to apply even though we have no foul.

I think that the Canadian rule book does not do justice to the offside pass in terms of the resulting penalty and when to apply and when not to apply.