And how would you say that K can't legally touch this ball? Are you going to flag K for touching this kick rolling around on the ground? Of course K can legally touch the ball rolling around on the ground during a kick. There is no illegal BIB on this play.

It is 1st touching in A, and illegal touching in NCAA for K to touch a scrimmgage kick beyond the NZ before it is touched by R. You do not flag it, but you had better have a beanbag down!

You are correct here MJT. The NF- NCAA definitions are a good example to use for understanding how this works. Even though we don't flag this violation as a foul that carries a penalty, it’s still technically illegal for K to touch or recover a scrimmage kick that’s beyond the NZ before it’s touched by R. K’s block in the back is illegal.

You can't apply the NCAA illegal touch to the Fed First touching. It isn't illegal in the federation, it is one of the situations where no foul is committed...yada yada I won't retype the whole sentence. I can see your point however James, but how is K who commits the BIB to know that it isn't a loose ball that he may legally touch or possess...with that in mind, I have no BIB, after it is touched or touches R you can't expect a player to know that it was batted by K to begin with. As a matter of fact if the first K player bats it and it goes out to the 15 where a second K player downs it, assuming no penalties it will be at the 15 so it there is the possibility that R benefits from K getting to the ball at the 15....I would never have a flag for the BIB

Official Answer
 

Looks like this stirred up some good discussion which is what I believe MJT wanted us to do.

A few of you had this right on. Our ruling had it spelled out as SouthGARef had in his #2 and #3. We didn't discuss #1 in this answer but I suppose that's certainly an option.

A couple of points:

1) First Touching isn't a foul, but rather a violation (which makes the act illegal). There can be more than 1 instance of 1st touching so the touching is illegal.

2) In point #1 the rules clearly say that a BIB is illegal as per 9.3.5b (for those of you who disagree b/c he "couldn't have seen it" still doesn't make the act legal). So you have to enforce the BIB...now whether you call it or not is another story.

3) I thought some of you would say the BIB would be legal because R40 did touch the ball before the BIB. But that was due to a batted ball. This year's rules tell you to ignore touching by R on a MUFF by K but doesn't say anything about a BAT by K. But common sense to us says that the a BAT would also apply to this rule. After all, why wouldn't it? I don't think the people making up the rules intended for K to get an advantage by purposely batting the ball into R and giving K a free shot at a BIB to get to the loose ball. Just our interpretation of course.

All for now. I'll put up another post next Thursday which is my day. I will still chime in on the discussion if people have other stuff to say but since there was an overwhelming response I wanted to get the ruling I had out there. Perhaps some of you may still dispute this but that's what makes it fun.

Thanks a bunch,
Ljudge

Need NCAA response
 

Oh, by the way my answer was NFHS only. I'm still a NCAA "wanna bee" and have a year or so before they'll even consider an application. So one of you college gurus need to answer for the NCAA bunch.

You don't throw a flag for ill touching in NCAA either. It is the same is in NF, just a different name.

If the BIB occured at a time when B could legally contact the ball, it would not be a foul, supported by casebook 9.3.5a. Even when either team can legally push, pull, or ward off an opponent to get to a loose ball, they can still have a foul for PF or ill use of hands 2-3-5 and 2-3-4.

Ok I guess I will go with not calling the BIB unless it is pretty violent, but I do disagree that first touching is a violation or a penalty, and I am not convinced that it is illegal. It is specifically listed as having results similar to a penalty, but not a foul. There is no such thing as a violation in football. If it were truly a violation or penalty, batting the ball at the 5 yard line to keep it from going into the endzone would result in some sort of enforcement other than giving R the ball at the 5 yard line. If R were in a position to block K1 would we penalize K for pushing R out of the way to get to the kick to down it at the 5? Assuming that they pushed R in the back to get there? I wouldn't because they can legally touch that ball just as they can legally touch the ball after it has been batted....I also believe that the note in rule 2-3-5 allowing for the defense to tackle a player pretending to be a runner, and reasonable allowance for the defense not knowing, can be applied here in the fact that the second K player may not be aware that the ball was batted into R, with that in mind I still say that the BIB is not illegal by itself, if it is a personal foul that is different as is noted in the note above LOL...anyway this has been a very good discussion, lots of rules digging while I should be reading basketball rules....

[Edited by cmathews on Dec 2nd, 2004 at 03:21 PM]

cmatthews, I got that term "violation" from an article I read in Referee. I guess you could argue they're not always right, but you would be incorrect in saying that First Touching is a legal act. That's why it has a consequence that's consistent with penalties and why it's sometimes referred to (although an unofficial term) as a violation and not a penalty.

Has anyone else ever heard of FT being referred to as a violation?

Either way you look at it, if FT were a legal act then why doesn't the ball simply become dead and belong to R when K finally possesses the ball.

Consider this play. K kicks from K50. K touches the ball at R's 30 and finally recovers the ball at R20. If FT were a legal act, then HOW could you justify giving R the ball at the 30 (the spot of first touching)? You couldn't! If so, then I'd challenge with "what rule would support this?"

See my point?

<i>Originally posted by cmathews [/i]
Ok I guess I will go with not calling the BIB unless it is pretty violent, but I do disagree that first touching is a violation or a penalty, and I am not convinced that it is illegal. <b>When the exact same thing happens in NCAA, it is called "illegal touching". I think this shows it is illegal, just that the enforcement is different, and a beanbag is dropped, not a flag.</b> It is specifically listed as having results similar to a penalty, but not a foul. There is no such thing as a violation in football. If it were truly a violation or penalty, batting the ball at the 5 yard line to keep it from going into the endzone would result in some sort of enforcement other than giving R the ball at the 5 yard line. <b>That "is" the enforcement, R can take the ball at that spot.</b> If R were in a position to block K1 would we penalize K for pushing R out of the way to get to the kick to down it at the 5? Assuming that they pushed R in the back to get there? I wouldn't because they can legally touch that ball just as they can legally touch the ball after it has been batted.... <b>This was a forced touching, which is ignored-this was in the early NF publication. </B> I also believe that the note in rule 2-3-5 allowing for the defense to tackle a player pretending to be a runner, and reasonable allowance for the defense not knowing, can be applied here in the fact that the second K player may not be aware that the ball was batted into R, <b>I see your point here, but it is their responsibility to know if there was a forced touching, the same way it is their responsibility to know a fair catch was called for even if they were being blocked as they came downfield.</B> with that in mind I still say that the BIB is not illegal by itself, if it is a personal foul that is different as is noted in the note above LOL...anyway this has been a very good discussion, lots of rules digging while I should be reading basketball rules.... <b>It has been a great discussion and got us in the books!</b>


<b>See my responses in BOLD above.</b>

MJT there are lots of differences in the NCAA rules and Federation rules, that is why you can't apply them to each other...one for example is this...if a player is blocked legally into the punter, in Fed rules roughing is or running into is waived, in NCAA it is still penalized, so I don't feel you can use them interchangeably.

Ljudge, the weakest part of my argument is for sure whether it is "legal" or not and I agree your argument is the strongest....however the note that I cited above concerning (reasonable allowance for the defense knowing whether or not a player is a ball carrier etc) I think applies here to the second K player. It is reasonable for them to think that this is a live ball, and therefore they are reasonable in thinking they can legally touch and possess it, and therefore they can "legally" Block in the back...and in either case I would hesitate to call it unless it was violent...and the chances of it being violent are pretty slim if the K player is actually trying to get to the ball, as opposed to just taking the opportunity to knock someone's head off...

ljudge I have enjoyed this thread and the discussion all day. I have several points to ponder.

NFHS 2-11-1 During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by a kicker before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.

NFHS 2-11-2 During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by any kicker in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

NFHS 2-16-1 A foul is a rule infraction for which a penalty is prescribed.

NHFS 6-1-6 When any kicker touches a scrimmage kick beyond the expanded neutral zone to R’s goal line before it is touched beyond the neutral zone by R and before the ball has come to rest it is referred to as “first touching of the kick.” And the place is the “spot of first touching.” If any kicker touches a scrimmage kick in this manner, R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching.

NFHS 6-3-5 If any kicker touches a free kick before it crosses R’s free kick line and before it is touched there by any R player it is referred to as “first touching of the kick.” R may take the ball at the spot of first touching. Or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching.

NCAA 2-9-1 A foul is a rule infraction for which a penalty is prescribed. A violation is a rule infraction for which no penalty is prescribed and does not offset the penalty for a foul.

NCAA 6-1-3 A team A player may touch a free-kicked ball:
a. After it touches a team B player
b. After it breaks the plane of and remains beyond team B’s restraining line
c. After it touches any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond team B’s restraining line.
Thereafter all players of team A become eligible to touch, recover or catch the kick. Illegal touching of free kick is a violation that, when the ball becomes dead, gives the receiving team the privilege if tacking the ball at the spot of the violation.

NCAA 6-3-2 No inbounds player of the kicking team shall touch a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone before it touches an opponent. Such illegal touching is a violation that, when the ball becomes dead, gives the receiving team the privilege if taking the ball at the spot of the violation.

First touching is a legal act because the rules do not prohibit it. The rules support it. The rules also do not prescribe a penalty for first touching. No penalty equals no illegal act. The rules do how ever tell you what to do if you have first touching. This prevents K from putting R at a disadvantage. In your play without the first touching (illegal touching) rules K would be able to touch the scrimmage kick at R’s 30 and then down it at R’s 20 forcing R to put the ball in play at the 20, instead of the 30.
Dale Smith

Dale, I may just be overwelmed by the bulk of your post, but I am correct that you are saying FT is legal, but there are ramifications? If so, they need to clarify in the rulebook or casebook to give more support to this play situation. I think the BIB should be enforced, but that is if you agree that B cannot legally touch the ball yet. This is where the problem is as I see it.

[Dale, I may just be overwelmed by the bulk of your post, but I am correct that you are saying FT is legal, but there are ramifications? If so, they need to clarify in the rulebook or casebook to give more support to this play situation. I think the BIB should be enforced, but that is if you agree that B cannot legally touch the ball yet. This is where the problem is as I see it. [/B][/QUOTE]

MJT touching of a scrimmage kick beyond the expanded neutral zone by K is legal. The ramification of first touching is, if R does not foul, no matter what happens during the play after first touching the ball will belong to R at the spot of first touching. If you break down ljudge’s play this is what you have.

:K's punt from the K-45 is bouncing around at the R-15. At the R-5 yard line, K85 bats the ball back towards his own goal line to prevent it from going into the endzone."
The bat is legal and is also first touching. Beanbag at the spot.

"The ball hits R40"
Ignore the touching by R40 because it is the result of the bat.

"K80 blocks R40 in the back at the R-10 to get to the loose ball."
If B40 is in the vicinity of the ball this block is legal as K80 can legally touch the ball.

"R40 picks up the ball and runs to midfield where he fumbles. K31 recovers and runs it in for a touchdown."
Ball is dead as the result of the touchdown. How ever because of first touching by K, the ball is returned to the spot of first touching and awarded to R by rule.

"During K31's run, he turns around and trots backwards into the endzone, does a little dance, and spikes the ball."
The dead ball USC foul by K31 is enforced against K at the spot of first touching. Ljudge did not say if K80 touched the ball, I will assume he did not. The ball will be put in play by R at R’s 20 yard line.

Dale Smith

Dale, why does it say in 2-3-4c then that "the offensive player may also use his hands to push, pull, or ward off an opponent <b>if he can legally touch</b> the ball. In 2-3-5, when talking in the same way about the defense, the words "if he can legally touch it," are not used. I think it is different because their are times when the offense/K cannot legally touch the ball, and this is one of those times.