While watching Monday night football last night (Jets vs. Fish), Al Michaels and company said the league (NFL) always states that the goal extends "through infinity." I think that they said, and here’s where I’m confused, that as long as the ball carrier doesn’t touch the ground out of bounds, that he can cross the goal line that extends beyond the pylon and score. Did anyone else here this and does it make sense to anyone?

Not sure I heard it.
 

I am not particularly familar with the term, but it is accurate.

If you are inbounds and you reach across the goal line, it is a TD.

Peace

Re: Not sure I heard it.
 

I heard it, it was on the very close catch near the sideline, tippytoed dive to the pylon. I believe it was the Jets first TD. It was an amazing play and a great call.

The goal line only extends forever on a player who is touching inbounds, so if a player dives outsie the pylon then you don't have a TD. But in the Jets game the player dived to the pylon but held the ball inside the pylon. He might have even had his feet inbounds. It was a great catch by the player and great call by the officials.

Snake~eyes,
So what you are saying is:
1) my toes are inbounds at the 1" line and the ball crosses the goal line outside of the pylon, it's a touchdown
2) I'm in the air before I reach the goal line the the ball crosses the goal line, out side the pylon at the same spot, no touchdown.
Thanks for the info.

REPLY: Consider it this way...If a ball in a runner's possession crosses the plane of the goal line itself (i.e. inside the pylon), it's going to be a TD regardless of where the runner's body is--as long as he's not <u>touching</u> OOB. However, it's also a TD if the runner crosses the goal line plane and touches the endzone inbounds regardless of whether the ball is inside or outside the pylon. The goal line extended concept is there to cover the play where a runner goes from the field of play into the EZ just inside the pylon where he's carrying the ball in his outside hand. In such a case, the ball may be outside the pylon and not cross the goal line itself. When I first typed this, I thought my explanation was pretty clear...now I'm not so sure.<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSzeb02822' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_1_13.gif' alt='Not Sure' border=0></a>

<b><u>I</u></b> know what I'm trying to say, but I'm not certain that anyone else will !!

Bob and snake~eyes.
That was very clear. Thanks much for the explanation.

Yes, I get what you say. I think it should be stated simply that the goal line plane does not end at the pylon.

RazorRef,
OR as was stated earlier, "the goal line plane does not end at the pylon" if the carrier is in bounds. If I launch myself at a 45 degree angle from the one yard line and land two yards beyond the projected goal line and out of bounds (i.e. I cross the portion of the goal line that is outside the pylon) it is not a touchdown.
Gentlemen, thanks much for the help on this. Although you wouldn't know it from this exchange, I'm actually fairly knowledgeable about football!!

One must assume that the players are "infinitely" tall for this to be true. :D

REPLY: Actually, Federation rules say exactly that in slightly different words in the definition of the goal line (NF 2-25-3). The NCAA rule says as much in NCAA 2-11-1 when you take into account the stated exception (4-2-4-e) when a runner dives across the sideline.

This is the second time I've seen this discussed in a thread, both started my Michaels and Madden. (see http://tinyurl.com/462gu) This one was a Buckhalter TD last season.
That thread died without an answer. And people weren't addressing the question I wanted answered.


Anyway - the question that remains for me is this:

If a player takes off at the 1, his body AND the ball fly and land beyond the goal line but out of bounds - and I mean WITHOUT the ball or body passing over the portion of the endzone marked as inbounds - is it a touchdown?

Because if that is not a touchdown, this whole thing about the goaline extending into infinity doesn't seem to really mean much. Because if you're just saying it's ok for the ball to pass in and the body to pass out - that's kind of obvious. He hasn't touched the ground yet.

Except that I saw someone say that if a player's entire body and the ball are in the air out of bounds he is out of bounds - even before he hits the ground. Because no part of him or the ball is over the field of play.

I really want an answer on this!!

No, this has been answered in this thread, I didnt look at the one you posted but I wouldn't be suprised if it was said there either. Goaline extended is only for players who are touching inbounds. Players who are in the air do not get goal line extended, they must get the ball inside the pylon.

Here we go again,
 

This is a long debated subject, that i wish the nfl would just realese an official statement.

The fact is, the goal line is a plane, by definition a plane is unbounded. Thats why the nfl rules commitee refers to the goal line as, "the line that goes around the world".

A player is not out of bounds when diving, until he hits the ground.

if someone dives out of bounds for a firstdown, the ball is spotted at the yardline where it is when they hit the ground, correct?

Lets say the yardlines of the endzone are E0 thru E10, if the player dives out of bounds at the 1 yardline, where he lands is going to be around E3 yardline, which would make it a TD.

Therefore a player diving out of bounds crossing the "extended goal line" out side of the pylon, is credited with a Touchdown.

No. Just no.

If the player is in the air when he goes out of bounds, the ball is spotted where the ball went out of bounds. If the player is in contact with the ground, the ball is spotted where the ball was when the player is ruled down (or out of bounds). Very easy, actually.

You are incorrect.
 

When diving out of bounds its the spot of the ball where you land.

When punting and kicking its where the ball crosses the out of bounds line. But when a player has position, the ball is not out of bounds until the player is, and by rule . . .

"A player or an airborne player is out of bounds when any part of his person touches anything other than another player or game official, on or outside a boundary line."

Stupid comment by the Mr. Michael.
Simply put, as long as the player is a runner (i.e not diving toward the pylon) the goal line extended off the field as far as the players arm can reach while his feet/foot is still on the ground.

Re: You are incorrect.
 

Rule 4-3-3:

When a runner goes out of bounds, the inbounds spot is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball at the time the runner crosses the plane of the sideline.

Yes, he's not out of bounds until he touches the ground out of bounds, but the ball still comes back to the spot where the ball was when the ball crossed the sideline plane.

Where are you getting this information from? And are your saying that if im on the 1 yard line and reach outside the pylon its a touchdown? but if i dive its not a touchdown?

Im not calling anyone stupid or anything, im completely rational, but i would like to see facts, so i can interpert them.

Facts the goal line is intenionally considered to be a plane, and by definition a plane is infinite.

THATS FACT, no one can argue that.

My second fact is that a player is not out of bounds until he touches the ground.

THATS FACT, no one can argue that.

and lastly it is a touchdown when a player reaches the ball across the plane.


Since i dont have the rule book, YET, logically that supports my argument.


if anyone has anything that supports their counter argument please enlighten me, thanks.

THATS FACT, no one can argue that.

----------------------------------------------------------
Yes, he's not out of bounds until he touches the ground out of bounds, but the ball still comes back to the spot where the ball was when the ball crossed the sideline plane.
----------------------------------------------------------

Ok thanks for the fact, i remember that being the case now that i think of it.

So i guess that means that its not a touchdown when you dive because although u cross the plane, u land out of bounds which nullifies the progress made back to where u went out of bounds.

but it is still a touchdown if you cannot get the ball INSIDE the pylon? As long as your feet are in play?

The Rules support what I have said. But to add, so does the casebook.

See NF casebook play 2.25.3

Here it is from the NF website:

Runner A1 is advancing towards B’s goal line and is very near the sideline. (a) A1 advances into B’s end zone while holding the ball outside the sideline plane; or (b) A1 dives toward the end zone, but is hit by B1 which causes him to land out of bounds beyond the goal-line extended. A1’s last contact with the ground was short of the goal line. In both cases the ball breaks the plane of B’s goal-line extendended.

RULING

In (a), it is a touchdown because A1 was touching inbounds when the ball broke the plane of the goal-line extended. However, in (b) since A1 was not touching inbounds and was short of the goal line when he was hit, it is not a touchdown even though the ball did break the goal-line plane extended. The ball is spotted at the inbounds spot on the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline plane when A1 was driven out of bounds.

The goal line extends for those who are still touching inbounds. It does not for those that are not.

If you have the ball inside the pylon, you don't need the extension, so that's a touchdown. If you want the extension, you better be touching inbounds.

It's that simple.

Thanks for the clarification, and for the case, that really helped.

ltrain - why so belligerent? You say you don't have the rulebook. We all posted the rules from the book. Since you don't have the book, why try to logic yourself around what the rules SHOULD be, in your fantasy world. Get the book and read it. This rule is really VERY easy to understand, once you read it.

Mcrowder,

I am in no way Belligerent. If i come across that way, im apologize. I just wanted some real facts not just someone saying NO, without anything behind it, thats why i appreciate mike spears efforts.

I found this article from nfl ref Jerry Markbreit that says that someone diving outside the pylon and landing out of bounds is still a TD long as some part of their body crossese the endzone.

I understand that one can not just dive 45 degrees out of bounds and score, but do you guys agree with this statement form Jerry Markbreit ?



from ChicagoSports.com (Chicago Tribune Online)
Dear Jerry, I have an incredibly confusing NFL rules question that I earnestly ask you to answer for me. It concerns the "infinite goal line." In the Eagles/Dolphins game, Correll Buckhalter scored a 2-yard TD in the 4th quarter that was challenged by Miami. The play featured Buckhalter leaving his feet at the 1-yard line, diving clear into the air, and landing out of bounds. Apparently the ball crossed the goal line even though Buckhalter landed out of bounds. While I understand that to be a touchdown, John Madden said, "it doesn't matter if the ball crossed the goal line inside the pylon because the goal line extends out beyond the pylons." Al Michaels said the NFL rules committee refers to the goal line "extending around the world," even though pylons are present. Can someone PLEASE explain to me if the goal line does in fact extend into infinity, AND more importantly, please explain why it does? If so, can you score a touchdown by leaping out of bounds at the 1-yard line, cross the "infinite" goal line, and then land totally out of bounds without having to extend the ball inside the pylon? --Brian Mariani, Clinton, Mass.

John Madden was correct when he stated that the ball does not have to cross the goal line inside or over the pylon for a touchdown to be scored. To put it very simply: Whenever the ball carrier dives for the end zone and any part of his body passes over the pylon before he touches anything out-of-bounds, it is a touchdown, regardless of where the ball is. If the runner goes out-of-bounds short of the pylon and the ball passes over the pylon before the runner lands out-of-bounds, it is also a touchdown. The goal line plane actually extends beyond the sideline and theoretically "extends around the world." In my opinion, this rule exists to make the game more exciting and more interesting in goal line situations. -- Jerry Markbreit - NFL Referee

ny the way
 

I just reread this thread to see why i am considered belligerent... my whole rant on where are u getting ur facts from was submitted b4 reading mike sears previous comments, sorry.

Re: You are incorrect.
 

REPLY: I believe it's you who are incorrect. When a player dives forward out of bounds, the ball is spotted where it crossed the plane of the sideline--not where the player landed. This is true for all levels (FED, NCAA, NFL) of football.

I already admitted being wrong on that, but thanks anyway bob!

Then maybe the next time you go spouting off about someone being incorrect, you'll have some rulebooks to quote instead of your logic. Welcome to the board!

REPLY: ltrain007, Sorry. I apologize. I hadn't 'refreshed' my browser and mistakenly thought that your post that I quoted and responded to was the last one in the thread.

However, reading Markbreit's answer, it's clear that the NFL rule is considerably different than both the Federation and NCAA rules.

Thanks
 

Patton thanks, I bet you feel really tough now.

And Bob, i do the same thing, thanks for clearing it up, I was confused.

Re: Thanks
 

Well, you have to admit that you came out pretty strong telling people they were incorrect, when what you were using as your logic was a article from the Chicago Tribune. Are you an official yourself? Were you aware that HS, college and the NFL use different rules? Did you know that the majority of the posts on this forum deal with NFHS. So, do I feel tough? No, I never intended to. I was sincere however, when I said welcome to the board. I enjoy when people (officials or not) come here and ask for help or clarification on the rules. It helps us to stay sharp.

Patton and anyone else on this board i have offended i apologize, i dont know why i am coming across so "belligerent" to everyone, but i guess thats how my words look when typed and not spoken. Anywho, I appreciate the answers and the rules, and i look foward to stirring up somethings in the near future.

It happened in the TCU Baylor Game - player passes within the pylon
 

But the ball is outside the pylon- however the player never steps into the end zone. The goal line to infinity only apples when the ball is outside of the pylon and the player in control of the ball makes contact with the turf in the end zone.

From the 2014 Case Book ...

2.26.3 SITUATION: Runner A1 is advancing towards B's goal line and is very near the sideline.
a. A1 advances into B's end zone while holding the ball outside the sideline plane; or
b. A1 dives toward the end zone, but is hit by B1 which causes him to land out of bounds beyond the goal-line extended.
A1's last contact with the ground was short of the goal line. In both cases the ball breaks the plane of B's goal-line extended.
RULING:
• In (a), it is a touchdown because A1 was touching inbounds when the ball broke the plane of the goal-line extended.
• In (b) since A1 was not touching inbounds and was short of the goal line when he was hit, it is not a touchdown even though the ball did break the goal-line plane extended. The ball is spotted at the inbounds spot on the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline plane when A1 was driven out of bounds.

Sorry, I missed where this was posted on Page 2 of the thread.

That's OK: it was 11 years ago.

"When diving out of bounds its the spot of the ball where you land."

Again.....no. It would be placed at the foremost spot where the ball intersected the sideline....he does not get the benefit of another 18-36 inches to where he contacts any out of bounds area or persons OOB. You are essentially confusing goal line extended with ball crossing the sideline. Think of where a punt / fumble crosses the sideline and where or how it is marked.

Lock this thread, a first time poster resurrected an 11 year old post.

What's the benefit of locking it? It's not a terrifically long thread, so someone interested in the subject can easily read thru it, and if they still have Qs, what better thread to post them in?