Kneeling play, LB dives at QB

[biglaz]

This happened in a youth game earlier this season. A is up by 20+ points, the clock is running and A has to snap it once more with about 10 seconds left in the game. They have already kneeled twice. But on this play one of the linebackers, B22, decides he's going to dive through the gap next to the center as soon as the ball is snapped (the O-Line didn't do much to stop him). The QB immediately started to kneel after recieving the hand-to-hand snap. B22, amid his dive, makes helmet-to-helmet contact with the QB just before he completes the kneel, wraps up, and tackles him.

I know this is hard to see without being there, but what would you do? I didn't have the best angle from HL, but the R flagged him for a PF. Would you flag this? Would you consider ejection?

[BulldogMcC]

If he nailed a downed QB who had taken a knee, shame on him, flagrant PF (especially with the helmet contact), bounce him. If he tackled a QB who was in the act of taking a knee but not yet down, shame on the O-Line, I have nothing unless the helmet contact is actually illegal.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by BulldogMcC
If he nailed a downed QB who had taken a knee, shame on him, flagrant PF (especially with the helmet contact), bounce him. If he tackled a QB who was in the act of taking a knee but not yet down, shame on the O-Line, I have nothing unless the helmet contact is actually illegal.

With 10 seconds left in the game, the foul would probably have no effect on the player, but the ejection would if it means he can't play in the next game. This might be the only way for him to learn a lesson. I'd definitely go with the ejection.

[ljudge]

I had this situation in the past and the hit caused a fumble and B recovered the ball. A was in the act of taking their 2nd knee when the same thing happened though there wasn't helmet to helmet contact. If it's obvious A will be taking a knee I tell the QB to don't be lax in getting down. I say something like "if you're going to take a knee then get down and don't dilly dally."

[Derock2004]

I would flag the defense for personal foul and make the offender sit the remainder of the snaps. He could probably be easily ejected for this play but I personally wouldn't eject him because ejection in most youth leagues mean an automatic 1 game suspension. Sitting him along with a lecture from the official and coach usually will teach the youths that this behavior is unacceptable.

[Derock2004]

Another thing you can do to prevent this from happening is announce to BOTH teams that team A will be taking a knee and for EVERYONE to relax! It always work for me.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Derock2004
Another thing you can do to prevent this from happening is announce to BOTH teams that team A will be taking a knee and for EVERYONE to relax! It always work for me.

Wrong!

You tell the defense "If he takes a knee, don't hit him! Everyone proterct yourself!"

Otherwise, the offense can use you as a ploy. As yes, it's been done.

__________________________________________________ ________

Here's my question:

Why don't coaches simply teach their kids to take the snap with the knee already on the ground? That way we can kill the play immediately.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Wrong!

You tell the defense "If he takes a knee, don't hit him! Everyone proterct yourself!"

Otherwise, the offense can use you as a ploy. As yes, it's been done.

__________________________________________________ ________

Here's my question:

Why don't coaches simply teach their kids to take the snap with the knee already on the ground? That way we can kill the play immediately.

If the offense tells me they are going to take a knee then I tell everyone "the offense will be taking a knee. Relax, do not hit the QB." By announcing to me AND the defense their intent to take a knee, they are committed to do just that. Anything other than an immediate knee will get a flag from me for "cheating". The offense can not say they are not going to run a play and then run one. Believe it or not their is a rule in the rule book that covers this and I think it has something to do with cheating or intentionally deceiving the defense.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Derock2004

If the offense tells me they are going to take a knee then I tell everyone "the offense will be taking a knee. Relax, do not hit the QB." By announcing to me AND the defense their intent to take a knee, they are committed to do just that. Anything other than an immediate knee will get a flag from me for "cheating". The offense can not say they are not going to run a play and then run one. Believe it or not their is a rule in the rule book that covers this and I think it has something to do with cheating or intentionally deceiving the defense.

Derock, see my post "Take a knee - then throw a TD" below. I agree with you that you can give a 15 yard USC for "unfair act" 9-9, but most are saying to "say nothing." I just think you can also tell the offense, "if you don't, the flag will be on you." I think you can do more if it is more than a one TD game, then if a closer game.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by MJT


Derock, see my post "Take a knee - then throw a TD" below. I agree with you that you can give a 15 yard USC for "unfair act" 9-9, but most are saying to "say nothing." I just think you can also tell the offense, "if you don't, the flag will be on you." I think you can do more if it is more than a one TD game, then if a closer game.

Most of the senior officials who post here do not agree with my style of officiating but this is what has worked for me for many years and it has proven to be an effective way to end a game when the intent is to take a knee and run out the clock. By announcing it, you are telling the defense and officials that you have no intent of running a play and out of good sportsmanship wish to be afforded the opportunity to safely take a knee without someone trying to take his head off. Under these terms, the offense "will take a knee" or get a foot in their rear end via my flag. I also understand the logic of "say nothing". Perhaps the best way to approach this deals entirely on the skill level of the players. In youth football (where I officiate) announcing the intent to take a knee works great. At the high school level and up, "say nothing" might be better. I don't know...all I can say is "it works for me"!

[Mountainman]

If you do not eject the player who committed this flagrant foul, you could wind up as a defendant in a legal suit if the QB is injured. And if he plays in the next game and commits another flagrant foul resulting in player injury, that may be construed as a continuation of a pattern of officials negligence. There just isn't any way to justify a mere warning or penalty without ejection.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by Mountainman
If you do not eject the player who committed this flagrant foul, you could wind up as a defendant in a legal suit if the QB is injured. And if he plays in the next game and commits another flagrant foul resulting in player injury, that may be construed as a continuation of a pattern of officials negligence. There just isn't any way to justify a mere warning or penalty without ejection.

If the QB is injured, you won't be liable the first time the hit is made. Whether you flag it or not has no bearing on whether the QB got hurt. However, if you didn't flag it and it happened again, you would be guilty of negligence. I've had coaches get upset, claiming that we allowed an injury to occur on a play where we flagged it. That is ludicrous to think we are negligent when we are flagging fouls. You can't prevent the first cheap shot.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by Mountainman
If you do not eject the player who committed this flagrant foul, you could wind up as a defendant in a legal suit if the QB is injured. And if he plays in the next game and commits another flagrant foul resulting in player injury, that may be construed as a continuation of a pattern of officials negligence. There just isn't any way to justify a mere warning or penalty without ejection.

Ejecting or warning the player has absolutely nothing to do with the possibility of a law suit. I don't see how this could ever come down to a legal issue but if it did, I would think the official would be the last person who would have to defend himself in any possible legal issues. What about the player who committed the flagrant foul...couldn't he be charged with assault? And the list of negligence would certainly run through many others before it would reach the official such as...
the lineman who missed the block
the coach for telling him to take a knee without protection
the defensive coach for not telling the LB to not hit him
If this LB is truly a threat to the health of players in the league, then the league officials would be responsible to make sure this player doesn't play in any more games. From what I have read in this one situation, that is not evident at this point. Also, the post did not say he gave him a concussion just helmet to helmet contact while he was on one knee.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Derock2004
Most of the senior officials who post here do not agree with my style of officiating but this is what has worked for me for many years and it has proven to be an effective way to end a game when the intent is to take a knee and run out the clock.

It only needs to happen once.

By announcing it, you are telling the defense and officials that you have no intent of running a play and out of good sportsmanship wish to be afforded the opportunity to safely take a knee without someone trying to take his head off.

The defense doesn't always annopunce it. Most times, the QB just tells the referee, "We're gonna take a knee.

How difficult would it be for you to say, "If he takes a knee, don't hit him," versus "He's gonna take a knee, Don't hit him," just to cover your a$$? Seems like a small re-phrase could save your butt one day. But hey, what do I know?

Originally posted by Mountainman
If you do not eject the player who committed this flagrant foul, you could wind up as a defendant in a legal suit if the QB is injured. And if he plays in the next game and commits another flagrant foul resulting in player injury, that may be construed as a continuation of a pattern of officials negligence. There just isn't any way to justify a mere warning or penalty without ejection.

Welcome to the board! But, sorry this is a bunch of bunk.

Whether you throw a flag or not, you cannot un-ring a bell. The hit has already been made. Throwing a flag or ejecting him does not change that.

Further, there's nothing in the rulebook that says this player MUST be ejected. Players commit personal fouls all the time. This is no different.

How many officials do you know who have been sued for not throwing a flag?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: The issue of Team A saying they're taking a knee presents a few problems but they're all based upon conflicting desires if less than a TD+2 separates the two teams. Team A has "given up" scoring and wants the game to end; Team B is looking for any opportunity to keep the game going with the hope that they'll get a turnover and possibly score. And that presents what I feel is the problem of telling the D to take it easy. What if the QB muffs the snap and the ball rolls loose near the neutral zone. And the D is just standing there because you told them to take it easy? Your warning has essentially taken away their last opportunity to possibly get the ball and score. How would you deal with that?

If the offense tells us they're taking a knee, we do this: Tell both teams that the game's not over. They MUST continue to protect themselves and play football. We tell the defense especially to be very aware when the ball becomes dead. We tell the QB to get to his knee in a hurry. We also bring all the officials in tight. Any late hits will be dealt with severely (read DQ). The biggest problem in this situation is not the defense...it's rather the offensive line who relaxes thinking that just because they want the game to end, the defense is going to comply. They leave gaps through which the defense has an unobstructed path to a QB who may be slowly going to his knee. If the O-line can be made to realize that there's still a game going on, and block like it, much of the problem would go away. Just my opinion...