In the 2001 Peach Bowl, the Offence threw a pass that was caught by Defender A mid-air and going out-of-bounds. Before he touched down, Defender A tossed the ball to Defender B, who was in-bounds and 4 yards up-field. The ball was awarded to the Defense, but the Defense was also charged with an illegal forward pass penalty.

I disagree with the call. I believe that since Defender A failed to come down with the ball, possession hadn’t yet changed. Therefore, there could be no illegal forward pass. Technically, wouldn’t tossing the ball, in this case, be a tipped ball instead of a pass? I think the correct call would have been to award the Defense with possession at the point that Defender B was tackled, and to have no penalty charged. I suspect that there wasn’t (and still might not be) a rule governing this specific and strange play in the rulebook. Can anyone shed some light on this situation?

You can view the play by going to the following URL:

http://espn.go.com/media/2001/m12/ncf_011231aub1v.avi

I agree, although I admit I was not around in 2001 and don't know if the rule changed. But as the rules have been since 02, you're right - no possession until you land, so couldn't be a forward pass. And the rules DO support that interp.

This play comes up every year. It is too bad that the search function has been disabled on the site.

The flag on the play was incorrect. A rule clarification was made for the following year despite some saying it was actually a rule change.
It was not a rule change at all.
The CCA test for 1999 or 2000 had a nearly identical play and I know it caused quite a bit of discussion up my way. The ruling was clear back then. It is not an illegal pass for an airborne receiver to throw or bat the ball forward to another player.

Ever since that TV play, the play comes up and the results are still the same for NF and NCAA. It is a legal pass.

If you didn't know, you can use google! http://www.google.com just go to advanced search and it allows you to search just this website.

I disagree with your call. I think it was a great call and this is why. In order for the ball to be thrown back in play there has to have been possession of some sort, correct. A tipped ball is ACCIDENTAL and the fact that this player had the know how and ablity to make this play, just shows you that this was not an Accident. Illegal Forward Pass and taken from that spot.

Tim Adams
Colorado Springs, Umpire for Ray Lutz..



[Edited by TBone6 on Oct 22nd, 2004 at 04:57 PM]

Unfortunately, Tim, that's not correct by the rules. It's not possible to pass the ball if you don't have possession of it. It's impossible to have possession of it if you have not come down with it. True in both NCAA and FED.

Okay. Lets take a closer look at this play and Im the first one to admitt if I'm wrong, ask my ex wife. This player looks like he has possesion of the ball.Correct. So you are telling me that if a wide reciever catches the ball out of bounce and throw it back to another reciever coming from behind him that this is a legal play? Okay, remember this game is not all rules, its common sense and knowing what is on purpose and what is not. This was clearly on purpose. Thanks for the correct information on this matter. I learn something new everyday in the wonderful sport..

[Edited by TBone6 on Oct 22nd, 2004 at 05:22 PM]

Look up your definition of catch. Until he comes down, he's not caught anything. Intent may be there, but in this case is not against the rules.

Also - when this happened, they admitted afterward that the penalty was not correct.

Great Job on this. Thanks for the help.. I have to leave now for a game. Great Job, bro.. Look forward to many more situations like this one.

Good luck with your game tonight and remember to have fun and show the player's that you do care about them and this sport. Compliment them every chance you get on a great play.

TBone

Too much work :)

I didn't even think about doing a search that way. Thanks for the suggestion.

It seems the defender never really made a full catch with his hands. Even still, by rule, he didn't have possession and therefore the play should be legal. I should copy this one onto a CD for our rules meeting reviews. Thanks.

Let's change this play slightly. Say A steps out of bounds, leaps, while airborn over out of bounds territory, he bats the ball to A2. Now what do you have?

Still legal unless it is a backward pass he bats forward. (We already determined the 'throw' without possession is just a bat)

You don't have illegal participation?

REPLY: I do...in Federation. In NCAA, I have illegal touching with LOD at the previous spot.

Right Bob, 15 yards for NF, no yardage for NCAA.

I would say that it is not IP. It would be IP if the A player goes OOB and returns, but jumping in the air does not constitute coming back in bounds. At the same time, the ball is not dead, since the A player is not OOB either. In the air, he is neither OOB nor in bounds (I suppose he is in limbo), since a player does not need to "reestablish" himself to no longer be OOB.

I have last year's rulebook on me, so I hope these rule references are correct: 2-1-3, 2-28-1, and 9-6-1.

No, not unless he lands in bounds or returns inbound during the play. He remains a player during the entire down. Even if he goes out of bounds, the loose ball does not become dead when touching a player unless that player is touching out of bounds. By leaping he has not returned in bounds nor does he make the loose ball dead on contact. Unless you can find me a different rule than 2-30 for player/non-player and 10-6 for illegal participation there is no rule broken. If a receiver steps OOB, leaps , catches the ball and comes down OOB, we don't flag for IP even though he was already OOB, so we cannot in this case either. In both cases the ball is still live while in contact with the airborn player and they are not illegal participating by definition.

Also, if the player was forced out, and was in the act of trying to return, you wouldn't have IP or ineligible even if he did come back into the field of play (NCAA).

I got this play from the referee.com website's exam. See 9-6-1.

Does 9.6.1d (from referee .pdf file with quiz) refer to a case book play, because my 2004 casebook has no such play and the ones on the NFHS web site are not numbered that way. I still don't think the rule applies, but I will discuss it with some local rule heads.

It would seem that way only the case book only goes to c. The disclaimer says the play was printed before any rule revisions. Do you have last years case book?