Dead ball enforcement

jjrye22

Just over 2 1/2 minutes in the 4th quarter. A is using hurry-up offense.
3rd and 2 on B's 42. Dead ball offsides defense (with contact). We blow the play dead, and come up to the line.
After a good 5 seconds the QB from A launches the ball 30-35 yards deep to no one. I flagged it for delay of game (it gives him time to talk to his team while we retrieve the ball - I'll leave aside that he started talking about a free play, since we had blown it dead and he really launched the ball!)

My question (NCAA):
Since we had not had a chance to signal the offside, do the dead ball penalties cancel, replay 3rd down, or do we have A's 1st and 10 on B's 42 (5 forward, reset, 5 back, reset)?

Thanks,

James

MJT

Originally posted by jjrye22
Just over 2 1/2 minutes in the 4th quarter. A is using hurry-up offense.
3rd and 2 on B's 42. Dead ball offsides defense (with contact). We blow the play dead, and come up to the line.
After a good 5 seconds the QB from A launches the ball 30-35 yards deep to no one. I flagged it for delay of game (it gives him time to talk to his team while we retrieve the ball - I'll leave aside that he started talking about a free play, since we had blown it dead and he really launched the ball!)

My question (NCAA):
Since we had not had a chance to signal the offside, do the dead ball penalties cancel, replay 3rd down, or do we have A's 1st and 10 on B's 42 (5 forward, reset, 5 back, reset)?

Thanks,

James

Really confused on what you are asking here. The DB offsides makes it 1st and 10 at the B37. It is 1-10, so the DB delay moves it back 5, making it 1-15 at the 42. At no level is this offsetting.

You said you had no chance to signal offsides. Your mistake there. You stop the game, give preliminary signal, talk to offending captain, clear yourself, give final signal to pressbox, wind or start clock on the ready (whichever is appropriate) and you are ready for the next down. It doesn't matter if they are in the hurry up, this does not change. NF, NCAA, or NFL would all be the same in this situation.

MI Official

As I read this. I could intepret this as a deliberate act, and possibly have a 15yd USC on A...

Middleman

Originally posted by MJT

Originally posted by jjrye22
My question (NCAA):
Since we had not had a chance to signal the offside, do the dead ball penalties cancel, replay 3rd down, or do we have A's 1st and 10 on B's 42 (5 forward, reset, 5 back, reset)?

Thanks,

James

Really confused on what you are asking here. The DB offsides makes it 1st and 10 at the B37. It is 1-10, so the DB delay moves it back 5, making it 1-15 at the 42. At no level is this offsetting.

It would not be 1st and 15.

It would be 1st and 10 at B's 42 (on the delay of game) or 1st and 10 at A's 48 (if you elect to enforce MI's proposed USC, which is supported by rule).

These are all enforced as dead ball fouls in order of occurrence. The offside would move the ball to B's 37, leaving the ball beyond the line-to-gain. Award a new series to A. Then, since the foul by A occurred prior to the ready-for-play, move the ball back 5 or 15 (whichever you enforce) before you establish the new line-to-gain. 1st and 10.

jjrye22

MJT - What I meant about the signals was that we didn't have a chance to give a preliminary signal for the offside before the delay of game happened.
To tell you the truth though - going back to something a long time ago on the board - I was overruled by the R.

He acknowledged it was delay of game, but said he wasn't going to penalize A for their own stupidity. Didn't wave off the flag, or give any indication to the press-box that I had thrown 2. And a coach even asked why there was no delay of game (a coach who understood what he saw).
I'll not be working with that R again after being treated like that. He was also more worried about getting the game over as quickly as possible to catch his train.

Back to my original question;
I remember reading somewhere (NF? or somewhere in NCAA) that the dead ball fouls are evaluated seperately, except when there has not been a chance to relay the fouls to the WH (continuous action fouls?). That is why I was wondering about the enforcement. I would have enforced it correctly, but the other possibility came into my head this morning, and I wasn't sure any more.

Thanks for the input guys,

James

These are all enforced as dead ball fouls in order of occurrence. The offside would move the ball to B's 37, leaving the ball beyond the line-to-gain. Award a new series to A. Then, since the foul by A occurred prior to the ready-for-play, move the ball back 5 or 15 (whichever you enforce) before you establish the new line-to-gain. 1st and 10.

MJT

My bad! Now I understand. I thought the delay was after the penalty was enforced and the ball was never snapped after the RFP. I didn't get that the QB held the ball and then chucked it down field. How stupid is he. (and I, I guess) for not getting the question. I did state I was confused by the question, so I probably should have read it better or not put in my 2 cents, oh well.
I agree with Middleman.

Ed Hickland

A good mechanic whenever a whistle is blown while the ball is dead is to immediately take control of the ball.

Forksref

Originally posted by jjrye22
Just over 2 1/2 minutes in the 4th quarter. A is using hurry-up offense.
3rd and 2 on B's 42. Dead ball offsides defense (with contact). We blow the play dead, and come up to the line.
After a good 5 seconds the QB from A launches the ball 30-35 yards deep to no one. I flagged it for delay of game (it gives him time to talk to his team while we retrieve the ball - I'll leave aside that he started talking about a free play, since we had blown it dead and he really launched the ball!)

My question (NCAA):
Since we had not had a chance to signal the offside, do the dead ball penalties cancel, replay 3rd down, or do we have A's 1st and 10 on B's 42 (5 forward, reset, 5 back, reset)?

Thanks,

James

Only live ball fouls offset.

Bob M.

Originally posted by Forksref

(snip)...Only live ball fouls offset.

REPLY: Not in NCAA. If the order of dead ball fouls cannot be determined, or if dead ball or unsportsmanlike fouls by both teams are reported to the R before any of the penalties have been completed (accepted, declined, canceled by rule), then these dead ball fouls do offset. Just another of the 2,391,708 differences between Fed and NCAA.

jjrye22

Originally posted by Bob M.

Originally posted by Forksref

(snip)...Only live ball fouls offset.

REPLY: Not in NCAA. If the order of dead ball fouls cannot be determined, or if dead ball or unsportsmanlike fouls by both teams are reported to the R before any of the penalties have been completed (accepted, declined, canceled by rule), then these dead ball fouls do offset. Just another of the 2,391,708 differences between Fed and NCAA.

This is exactly what I was thinking of.... From what Bob wrote, would this then not be offsetting penalties?
We know what order the fouls occured, but the 1st had not yet been reported to the R before the 2nd fould occured.
I would have done them in order (new 1st down but from the same spot), but Bob's response is what has been in the back of my mind. Does anyone else have a comment about NCAA enforcement?

Thanks,

James

mcrowder

NCAA - the fouls in this particular situation offset.

The Roamin' Umpire

Originally posted by Bob M.
Just another of the 2,391,708 differences between Fed and NCAA.

Just curious, do you always use the same number when you use this line?

JasonTX

Originally posted by mcrowder
NCAA - the fouls in this particular situation offset.

Under NCAA only the 15 yard variety of dead ball fouls offset. When two 5 yarders are committed they are administered separately and in the order of occurrence.

10-1-5 Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and in order of occurrence (A.R. 10-1-5-I-VIII) [Exception: When unsportsmanlike or dead-ball personal fouls by both teams are reported to the referee and before any of the penalties have been completed or the order of occurrence cannot be determined, the fouls offset, the number or type of down established before the fouls occurred is unaffected, and the penalties are cancelled, except that any disqualified player must leave the game (Rules 5-2-6 and 10-2-2-a)].

Bob M.

Originally posted by The Roamin' Umpire

Originally posted by Bob M.
Just another of the 2,391,708 differences between Fed and NCAA.

Just curious, do you always use the same number when you use this line?

REPLY: I doubt it...even I'm not that anal.