can someone help me to understand why they have "defend a goal" as an option in a coin toss situation. lets say the visitors win the coin toss and elect to defend a goal, the home team will get the ball. lets say the visitors elect defense, the home team gets the ball and then the visitors get to pick what goal they want to defend. now in the second half if the home team takes offense, the visitors get to pick what goal they want to defend again. it works out the same in both situations. i believe defending the goal is no different that just saying we want defense. why have that option of defending a goal if you win the coin toss in the rules? what am i missing. i feel it is useless? maybe i am missing something. if someone can clarify for me i would appreciate it.

If you have a great defense and the wind is blowing 40 miles an hour, taking the wind and going on Defense doesnt sound like a bad set-up. Especially in OT.

maybe you didnt understand my question. i am not debating why a team would elect to take defense, i want to know the difference between taking "defense" and "defending a goal".

You are incorrect. If the visitors select to go on defense (actually kickoff) the home team gets to choose the goal to defend. You say that the home will choose to take the ball. That choice has already been made when the visitors elected to kickoff. The home team will choose which goal to defend. In your example, the visitors got both choices & the home team got none.
These are two very distinct choices. If there is wind or sun that makes one direction more desirable over the other the team may want to choose the direction to go, making the choice of goal more important than being on offense or defense.

[Edited by STEVED21 on Oct 7th, 2004 at 08:30 AM]

The Sooners in the 80s used to choose to defend a particular goal all the time. The other team would then choose to receive. If the Sooners had elected simply to kick, the opponent would have gotten to select which direction the kick came from.

Choosing a side is NOT the same as choosing to kick. In the above scenario, the opponent COULD have opted to kick instead of receive, and might have had they been faced with a coaching team with similar thoughts as Oklahoma.

The choices I give at the coin toss are to defer, to receive, and which goal to defend. I leave out the choice to kick so that they will pick a goal to defend instead of giving all of the choices to the other team.

If a team chooses to defend a goal instead of kick then they have just also chosen, 99.999999% (statistical fact :D) of the time, to kick but they have also chosen which direction they will kick. The choice to kick is a very limiting choice because the other team gets to receive and they get to go in the direction they want.

There are only three choices in the coin toss. To defer choice until the second half, who will be kicking, and from which end of the field each team will be playing. When one team chooses to recieve the other team is, by default, the kicking team. They don't have to choose to kick the ball.

A couple of weeks ago the home team wins the toss. They chose to defend the south goal. I turn to the visiting captain and ask "Do you want to kick or receive" They chose receive and they also got to choice in the second half and they receive then as well. There was no wind or sun, I guess the home team like playing defense. Both teams were the last two years state champions ranked #10 and 15. Home team won 15 - 0

Warrenkicker...is this the only rule you choose to ignore or are there others?? I always give the captains all the choices available...if they choose to kick, I ask to make sure I heard right, but I always give all the options..I think that you are penalizing Team B by not giving team A all of the options....If they choose to kick, then team B should have the option of the goal to defend...by taking out the Kick option, you in effect take away options for B....

cmathews, out of curiousity, if A scores a TD, but were lined up in a illegal formation, do you also give the B captain all of his options? And if he chooses to decline the penalty do you make him stick with that?

I give them their best option first, and occasionally if it is the obvious choice I tell them what their best option is, just like the officials manual says to do. My point is that if you don't give the winner of the toss all 4 of the options, you are potentially taking an option away from the toss loser... If A wins the toss and elects to kick then B has the option of which goal to defend, which should be their right as it might make a difference... if you don't allow A to choose to kick, then you have given an advantage to team A...and we shouldn't do that...

I will tell the captain what the foul is and what we are going to do, but I don't give an option to a defensive captain when his choices are (1) TD or (2) penalty.

I give the choices to the captains at the coin toss as so: Would you like to receive, defer to the second half....and I slow down at that point to almost ensure I get something from the captain at that point. I will finish the sentence eventually. Also, if a team says they want to kick, I'm going to explain the consequence of that choice because they probably mean "defer". When I'm working kid football, I get the coach's preference in the pregame. And I wish we did that in HS games, too.

--Rich

--Rich

I do things very similar to Rich....I do make sure that kick and defend a goal are given at the end of the choices....

Nope, this is the only one. :D

By saying that this penalizes B is a reach. B would never have gotten both options without A's mistake. A's coach is going to come over and ask why he has to kick off both halves and wonder why you didn't stop his captains from doing that. I know it's not our job but that won't stop him from being mad.

The last time I had a team try to kick was a grade school game and even after clearly telling them multiple times what that would mean they still wanted to do it. After that I decided that NOBODY would have a problem with leaving out the kick option. Kids don't always do what they are told. Haven't had a problem since. If they want to kick then by all means they can.

2 years ago, mid-season, but the 1st week for the kids to be out there at the flip without any coaches. 11 year olds.

Team A wins, immediately says he wants to kick. We explain his options, and he says coach told me we want to kick. We reexplain that he can defer to the 2nd half, and then the other team will likely choose to receive - that way he gets to kick, but gets to receive, if they want, in the 2nd half. He agrees to defer. So I look to team B - do you want to receive, kick, or defend a goal.

"We want to kick."

Aaaaaarrrrggghhh!!!!!

We waive both coaches in (this being the 1st week and all, and us being very understanding), and reexplain. Team A defers, Team B receives. Got hearty thank you's from both coaches.

Warrenkicker,
I kid you not, we have had this happen 2 times this year at the Varsity level...How can you say you are not penalizing B...if there is an advantage to be gained by choosing a goal then you are penalizing them if you don't give the winner all the options...I don't disagree with questioning, or explaining, but to me you have to give them all the options if they win the toss...

This can all be avoided. When the wings go to get the captains for the meeting, ask them to stand with you with the coach. Ask them: a) What are you going to do if you win the tosS? b) What are you going to do if they win the toss and they choose to receive... which goal would you like to defend? c) What are you going to do if they win the toss and choose to defer, you're going to receive right?

Then you've got the kids trained...

I am all for this at the younger levels...however at a varsity game I am not going to have a captain choose to kick then have me step in and say uhhh no you wanted to defer remember.....I don't have a problem telling a coach that the guy he chose to be a captain, made this choice...it isn't our fault at all, it is poor coaching. As I said before I am fine with repeating, and adding you are sure you want to kick....which in the 2 situations I have seen this year was done, both times the wh (one of which was me) said are you SURE you want to kick...both times it was "yes we want to kick"...so there we go..

Some preventive officiating would've been in order here.

Again, what's the point of this? Make sure the teams know the consequences and make sure they choose what they really mean.

I work about 70 games a year. This happens about twice a year in youth games. I usually prevent it at that level, but last year a freshman team insisted that their coach said to choose to kick. They kickoff in both halves and the coach took full responsibility for it. He thought that if you kicked off in the first half you automatically received in the second.

For clarification:

Excluding the right to defer their choices to the second half, there are 2 choices at the start of the game. The winner gets to choose which of those options to pick from and the loser of the coin toss gets the other option. The two options are:

1. Receive or kick
and
2. pick either goal to defend in the first quarter.

The kick choice should always be included. Example : a very wet day where there should be a lot of turnovers. Both teams want to play defense in the other teams territory to start the game. The only way to guarantee to be on defense is to elect to kick. If you choose a goal, then the other team can elect to kick. The 99.99999999% statistical number quoted earlier isn't enought to omit the kick choice. Do what the rules say to do. Preventive officiating is used to prevent a team from making a mistake. Changing the rules, by not giving the options properly, hurts the teams that knows what they want, when they actually want to kickoff no matter what!

[Edited by SJoldguy on Oct 8th, 2004 at 12:57 AM]

All due respect, preventative officiating should be reserved for stopping minor rules infractions from becoming major rules infractions. Limiting the coin toss choices doesn't do that at all. Don't pretend to be a coach or presume to know better then the team leader. On the varsity level, if a captain says he wants to kick then he wants to kick and it is not for us as officials to arm chair coach that response. In the half a dozen times it has happened at the Varsity level, I have never had any backlash from the coach. We explain the choices and they chose. Its simple really. Just my $0.02.
007

I'm not coaching when I explain the down and location of the ball when I give the choice to the captains on penalty enforcement, so why am I coaching when I tell the captain that if he chooses "kick" that his team will likely have to kick in both halves.

In my opinion it is simply poor officiating to hear "kick" in ANY HS game and not make sure they didn't mean "defer." If they really insist on choosing "kick" I'll let them, but there's no reason to show both teams how smart you are by being so literal.

Like I said, this is just my opinion -- but I don't think preventing bad situations should stop just because it's a varsity game.

I did say that I will present all the options in a previous email, too, just in the order of the ones that people are most likely to exercise.

--Rich

You are not coaching when you tell him what choosing kick will mean.

You are, however, overstepping your bounds, I believe, when you don't even include KICK as an option.

I *do* include kick as an option, just after receive and defer to the second half -- I may include a slight pause in there to see if they already have one of those two choices in mind (which 95% of captains will), but I'll say kick or defend a goal eventually.

The point I want to see discussed is the point I made earlier -- when the kid says "we want to kick" how many people would just give him that option without explaining the consequences? To be honest, I like my wingmen too much to subject them to the continued abuse they'll get if the same team has to kick off twice because of some simple misunderstanding.

Wind is a factor. Some want it in the 4th quarter, etc.

Some teams choose defense because they like to do that first because they believe in their defense. This is not the same situation as defending a goal because of weather conditions.

My apologies, Rich. That "You" wasn't directed at YOU - it was directed at the collective You, and a couple of the guys on here have advocated not including Kick as an option.

So tonight we have the toss and before I can even get word one out of my mouth, the visiting captain that won the toss says "We defer."

So much for reporting how this all went tonight :)

Visiting team won 33-8.

REPLY: Might it help to ask the winner of the toss, "Do you want to make your choice this half or 'defer' till the second half?" and get <u>that</u> answer before offering the receive/kick/goal question to the appropriate captain?

It would help if your goal is to get a blank stare :)

--Rich

Just had this happen Friday Night with the #1 team in the state. At the end of halftime I asked the coach if he wanted to receive. He said he would choose to defend a goal. Has a great defense and even took the wind in the 3rd Qtr. Visiting coach was happy to receive both halves.

Halftime score was 7-0. They won 23-0.

And we need to reduce the opportunities for blanks stares. We get enough of them!

And so...
 

The captain's options are to kick, receive, defend a goal or defer his choice and if all officials would give them these choices and we have uniformity among the officials in what they ask and the captains cannot get it right I suggest the coaches get new captains not modify the options into 3 or 4 four different choices. Herein lies some of the problem. Lack of uniformity among officials again can lead to confusion among the captains. Our officials are required to have coaches come to our captains meetings so if there is any confusion by their captains they are right there to hear the reason for the confusion. There is only the captain to blame.

Re: And so...
 

No, the options are to receive, defer to the second half, kick, and defend a goal

:)

my two cents worth
 

Here is my little speech

1. Gentleman step in and please introduce yourselves.

2. "Team X" you are my visitors this evening you will call the coin flip. I then show both teams the coin I am flipping and explain to them which is heads and which is tails.

3. Team X captain states what his call will be and then I repeat it so 1. he can confirm it and 2. the home team knows what he has called.

4. Flip and show the results to each team.

For this purpose we will say the Team X won the coin flip.

5. I then state "Team X" you have won the toss and your options are as follows.

1. You may defer to the second half

2. You may kick or recieve

or 3. You may choose a goal to defend.

Usually as most of you run into they say right away what they want and I do not get out all of my speech.

I think we can all agree that 95% of the time or more the winners will choose to 1. Defer or 2. Receive.

If it is something different I will politely say let me explain all 3 so we get it correct.

After that give them sportsmanship speech and wish both teams good luck.

I know of a game where the captain for one of the teams (Team B) was not a mensa candidate. He lost the toss, and the other team's captain said "We defer." Team B's captain then got all agitated and yelled "That's not right! We're de Furr, ya'll are the Kashmere".

His school was Furr high school, and he thought the other captain was electing to play on his team.

First year official and I dont think they even make a white hat that would even come close to fitting my head, however, 3 pages on a coin toss seems, well...silly. So... I went to the officials manual and had to look for myself what the book says.
Under coin toss they tell you that the choices to be given are:
(1)Kick or receive
(2)Defend a goal
(3)Defer to the second half

Cant understand what else needs to be said. The captains have a responsibility to know what to do, that is why they are a captain.

Give them the choices, let them answer, and play ball.

Geesh

Yup, first year officlal. Yup, the manual spells everything out.

Wait until you throw on the white hat on a Friday night and the captain says kick instead of defer. Then accept the captain without questioning what he means.

Then see what your relationship is with the team that now has to kick off twice. Of course you'll be fine in the first half until you tell them that they get to kick again in the second half. I guess you'll have showed them just how smart you are and how stupid they are.

Remember the Phil Luckett incident in the NFL game a few seasons ago? Phil, by the book, was completely right in what he did. Did it help him during the game and in the post-game opinion of him?

I am a control freak when it comes to the coin toss. Many officials catch the coin in the air -- I don't -- I let it hit the ground like the guys on TV. I also make sure the teams get what they want, for 3 reasons: (1) It's going to affect the rest of the game and may influence my relationship with the league, school, etc., and (2) it's what everyone expects and is the right thing to do, and (3) I don't have a microphone on us showing the world that the kid screwed up. It would be a pretty hard sell to anyone that a team wanted to kick off both halves unless they specifically wanted to do so. It doesn't happen often enough.

But other referees can do what they want. I WH every Friday night and will continue to be preventive -- if there's going to be problems, I'd like them to happen AFTER the game starts.

No reason to close any thread, either.

Question?
 

Rich, am I missing something? I don't quite understand your response to my post?

The Bottom Line
 

The Bottom Line is this:
If you want to change a rule, including eliminating a coin toss option listed in Rule 3-2-3a, there is a procedure to do so.

1) Any official may submit a proposal for a rule change to the NFHS via your state association on the proper form.
2) ALL proposals are listed on the proposed rule change list for all committee members (and other interested parties) to review.
3) In January, at the rules committee meeting, all proposals are assigned to one of the four committees for review. The committes are safety, editorial, rules, and mechanics.
4) If a proposal makes it through committee, it is introduced on the the floor for a vote.
5) If a proposal passes with by a majority of the floor vote, it is written into the rules for the following year.

<i>Note: Last year in Phoenix, 9 of the 65 proposals passed and were introduced as new rules in 2004.</i>

<b>No official, has the authority to eliminate a rule!</b>

<b>NFHS Rule 3-2-3a</b> <u>clearly</u> defines the captains options for each half!
NFHS 3-2-3...The winner of the toss shall have first choice of options for the first half or defer and have first choice for the second half. The loser shall have the first choice of options for the half the winner of the toss did not select. The options for each half <b>shall</b> be:
a. To <b>choose</b> whether his team will <b>kick</b> or recieve.
b. To choose the goal his team will defend.
The captain not having the first choice of options for a half shall excersise the remainin option.

Since the NFHS used the word <b>shall</b>, officials are <b>required</b> to offer the captain all of his options!

Nuff said!

Rich... I can understand your point, but why not cover this issue with the head coach before the game, let him know what you expect when he sends someone out there. I guess my other suggestion would be is if we need to be that careful (controlling), why not just do the coin flip with only the coaches before the game somewhere, that way there is are mistakes made unless its by the man himself.

Re: The Bottom Line
 

Required? C'mon. I don't see the NFHS signing my checks.

I have never seen a chain clipped at the goalline on a first and goal. Anyone do that? IT'S REQUIRED, after all since it's in the manual.

Get real.

Re: Question?
 

I'm saying that you provide all the options, but in a different order is all.

Not sure.......
 

Not sure that I agree with some of these statements: "Remember the Phil Luckett incident in the NFL game a few seasons ago? Phil, by the book, was completely right in what he did. Did it help him during the game and in the post-game opinion of him?"

I think the press would have crucified him if he didn't let them have what they had asked for after the flip.

"I am a control freak when it comes to the coin toss. Many officials catch the coin in the air -- I don't -- I let it hit the ground like the guys on TV. I also make sure the teams get what they want, for 3 reasons: (1) It's going to affect the rest of the game and may influence my relationship with the league, school, etc., and (2) it's what everyone expects and is the right thing to do, and (3) I don't have a microphone on us showing the world that the kid screwed up. It would be a pretty hard sell to anyone that a team wanted to kick off both halves unless they specifically wanted to do so. It doesn't happen often enough."

When I am working a high school game, we are big not little and after they make their choice I just don't see where it is my job to coach them to a decision. As far as my relationship with the teams for the rest of the game, the league and the school, if this affects my relationship then I have no relationship in the first place. I don't think it is fair to the other team if the team that wins the toss screws up their choice and I fix it for them because of their ignorance. Some teams send out four captains and they should probably pick their spokesperson on the basis of grade point average instead of popularity or "me football player" mentality.

Re: Not sure.......
 

AGREE. I had one last year where the captain messed up. As the coach and team were going to the locker for the last few minutes before kickoff, the coach said, "We screwed up didn't we!" I said, "yep." No problem, just a learning situation. I still contend that coaches need to coach the coin toss better with these kids.

Big difference between the RULE BOOK and the Officials Manual
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Quote:

Required? C'mon. I don't see the NFHS signing my checks. I have never seen a chain clipped at the goalline on a first and goal. Anyone do that? IT'S REQUIRED, after all since it's in the manual. Get real.

All writings in the NFHS Officials Manual are <b>recommended procedures!</b> (Officials Manual - <u>inside flap</u>)
The officials manual uses words such as <b>encouraged</b> and <b>recommended.</b>
Examples would include: the <b>recommendation</b> (Page 74, III-E 1&2) that (in a first and goal situation) the Head Linesman place a clip on the chains at the intersection of the goal line prior to removing the chains from the sideline. (This recommendation, like all other recommendations contained within the Officials Manual, comes from <u>experianced, knowledgeable, and seasoned</u> <b>veteran officials.</b>)

All writings in the NFHS Rule Book are <b>Rules.</b>
When <b>shall</b> is used anywhere within the binders rule book, I interpet <b>shall</b> to be equivalant to <b>required.</b>
Likewise, when <b>required</b> is used in the rule book I interpet <b>required</b> to be equivalant to <b>shall</b>.
Examples would include NFHS Rule 3-2-3 ...The options for each half <b>SHALL</b> be:
a) To choose whether to <b>kick</b> or recieve...

One closing thought -
While the NFHS may not sign your paycheck,
the NFHS does <b>require</b> you to buy their rule book, <u>every year</u>!!!

Nuff said!

I agree. There is a HUGE difference between MECHANICS and RULES. We don't have the authority to change the rules.

I always give the captains all of their choices, however, I always ask the head coach what he plans to do at the toss. I specifically ask him if he wants to defer his choice. This way I am able to form my question to the captain in a way to limit his chance of messing up. In other words, if the coach indicates that he wishes to defer, I will ask the captain directly, "Do you wish to defer?" It also allows me to help the coach if he tells me he wants to go on defense first. I can explain to him the consequences of phrasing his instructions to his captain. We can do many things in our officiating to help avoid negative situations. I think this is part of the "preventive officiating" philosophy.

Re: Big difference between the RULE BOOK and the Officials Manual
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KWH

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser Quote: Required? C'mon. I don't see the NFHS signing my checks. I have never seen a chain clipped at the goalline on a first and goal. Anyone do that? IT'S REQUIRED, after all since it's in the manual. Get real. All writings in the NFHS Officials Manual are <b>recommended procedures!</b> (Officials Manual - <u>inside flap</u>) The officials manual uses words such as <b>encouraged</b> and <b>recommended.</b> Examples would include: the <b>recommendation</b> (Page 74, III-E 1&2) that (in a first and goal situation) the Head Linesman place a clip on the chains at the intersection of the goal line prior to removing the chains from the sideline. (This recommendation, like all other recommendations contained within the Officials Manual, comes from <u>experianced, knowledgeable, and seasoned</u> <b>veteran officials.</b>) All writings in the NFHS Rule Book are <b>Rules.</b> When <b>shall</b> is used anywhere within the binders rule book, I interpet <b>shall</b> to be equivalant to <b>required.</b> Likewise, when <b>required</b> is used in the rule book I interpet <b>required</b> to be equivalant to <b>shall</b>. Examples would include NFHS Rule 3-2-3 ...The options for each half <b>SHALL</b> be: a) To choose whether to <b>kick</b> or recieve... One closing thought - While the NFHS may not sign your paycheck, the NFHS does <b>require</b> you to buy their rule book, <u>every year</u>!!! Nuff said!

Yeah, sure. Whatever. And the best officials are the ones that know how to manage a game properly, not necessarily the ones that score the highest on the exam.

If you go back through this thread, I never once said I don't offer up all the choices. I only said I offer them in the order *I* choose. And if someone says "kick" then I'm going to make *certain* that this is what they want.

If you want to be preachy about the rule book, go right ahead. I know the rules and study the rules often. But I don't think that the words are words on a sacred scroll or anything like that.

--Rich

In Texas, high school football is Friday night religion. Likewise, everything associated with football is sacred. Repeat 20 Hail Marys, you sinner.

What happens if in the course of hearing something you think is wrong, you rephrase things that confuse a young man and he chooses something that the coach didnt want in the first place ???
Is this not worse than having him make a mistake on his own?
In giving choices on penalty enforcement, if we hear something we "think" is wrong do we keep rephrasing to try and get the "right" answer?
I guess I just think that especially at the varsity level these are young men. They need to be treated as such which means they need to learn that with a position of leadership (being a captain) their is some sense of being responsible for their actions and descisions they make.

This is a life lesson... not a football lesson.

It's only a game. There's a lesson in our listening and comprehending, too, and being preventive.

Well, who'd have a thunk we could have a 4 page discussion on coin toss options? I've been reading it and staying out of it so far, but now I'm going to offer you a little philosophy.

As background, I'm usually considered a "rules guy" by others in my area. And it's taken me a number of years to realize that there's more to the game than that. It might be considered sacrilegous by some to make this statement, but The Rulebook is Simply a Guideline for how the game should be played. Now, I'm not saying we can make up rules, nor can we ignore rules we don't personally like, because that's just chaos, not a game. But we need to temper the rules with common sense.

How many guys are going to flag every little mistake in a little kids game? According to the rule book you should. But we temper that with common sense and allow the kids to learn and have fun.

How many guys are going to flag contact on a receiver that would be DPI if the ball was thrown to him, but instead is in the air headed toward the other sideline? Remember, by FED rule, if the ball is in the air, this is DPI by the rulebook. Again, not too many are going to do this for very long. Again, common sense is tempering the rule book.

In a game where a team is getting blown out by 40, say you stop the clock for an injured player with 6 minutes left in the game and the clock operator doesn't get it stopped until 4 seconds after you signaled? Are you going to put the time back on? Again, by rule, you should, but are you going to?

We are out there to help the kids. We are out there to make them as safe as possible, give them a fair chance at winning the game, and give them a chance to have fun. If I can help prevent an obvious mistake by a 15-17 year old kid, then why wouldn't I? That kid has enough on his mind.

And remember, it's not just kids that make mistakes at coin tosses. At my very first college game as a white hat, I screwed up the signals on the toss. Stepped out, signaled the defer. Came back in, got the rest of the choices, then proceeded to signal that the team that had just defered was also going to receive. Naturally, that wasn't right. That gave the coach some pause until I trotted over and told him he was getting the ball, that I had just screwed up the signal. He just slapped me on the shoulder and said "Ok!"

FWIW ... I saw a coach once who really did want to "kick" at the start of both halves. Apparently this was his regular practice, week after week. I guess he he had more faith in his defense's ability to force a turnover or hold the offense to three and out, than in his offense's ability to march the ball down the field.

I've recently looked into the coin toss and tried to come up with what I think is a good sequence. Here's how I do the toss:

We line up at the 55. (Yes, we have a 55-yard line, FTTDK.) The WH faces benches so that he may see the coaches over players' shoulders. The rest of the crew stands about 5 yards away, facing the stands. The captains line up on their respectives sides to make a 'box' with the officials.

I ask each team who will speak for the coin toss. I show both teams the heads and tails, and am sure that my crew know which is which before hand. I then ask the visiting team what their choice is. I repeat "Visitors choose heads", or "Hamilton chooses tails", or whatever. I then flip the coin and catch it. Sometimes guys have the coin land in the grass and it lands between blades of grass, standing upright, to which I have to flip again. I then flip the coin to my other wrist and show the home team and myself first. Then I show the visiting team.

I ask V is they wanna defer or choose now. I then go through all the options as necessary, have the teams flip sides if required, signal an "incomplete signal" to mean defering. Then I signal receive with the other team if they chose to receive, kick if they chose kick. I'm actually still trying to figure out a signal to defend an end.

Overtime coin toss signals
 

When faced with that situation, the proper method requires TWO signals!

As per the NFHS Officials manual under "The Coin Toss" (Step 7c)...If the first choosing captain elected to defend a goal, point with both arms extended toward that goal line, then move to other captains and give appropriate signal for choice of other captain.

Since we are on the subject, I am trying to determine a signal for when faced with an overtime coin toss the winning captain chooses defense!!!
Restated, when faced with an overtime situation it is clear that the winner of the toss may choose offense, defense, or choose which goal the series will be played at.
1) My best guess the signal for choosing a goal is the same method as described above.
2) I was told or read somewhere the signal for choosing offense is to place a ball to the players chest and then signal first down.
3) However, the most common option of the winning captain in overtime is to choose defense. Whats the signal???<b>
Can anybody direct me to where the proper overtime signals are listed???</b>

Re: Overtime coin toss signals
 

Hey, KWH, does the manual mention what my umpire should put on his halftime brat? :)

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Oct 17th, 2004 at 11:48 PM]

Re: Re: Overtime coin toss signals
 

Yes... snickers.

Re: Re: Overtime coin toss signals
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Quote:

Hey, KWH, does the manual mention what my umpire should put on his halftime brat? :)

Rich-
You appear to have an answer for everything, but fail to provide a solution for any of the issues.
I thought the quesion I ask was pretty legit, so, why don't you prove me wrong and provide some constructive input?
If you forgot the question I will repeat it:
Absent of a microphone, how would you signal to the press box that the winner of the overtime coin toss has elected to go on defense?

Try this one. I had ovetimes in three of the four youth games I refereed this weekend. I conduct the coin toss, give the options, turn the teams backs to their goals, face the press box and point to the team that won the toss stating, "Red wins the toss". I then turn and signal first down in the direction we will start the overtime.

If White chooses to defend a goal first, it will be evident when I point to them and say, "White wins the toss" and then indicate first down towards them.. This also puts you on the correct end of the field as a team on offense first in an overtime will not start at their own ten yard line. Who knows, but it works for me.

Re: Overtime coin toss signals
 

Since we are on the subject, I am trying to determine a signal for when faced with an overtime coin toss the winning captain chooses defense!!!
Restated, when faced with an overtime situation it is clear that the winner of the toss may choose offense, defense, or choose which goal the series will be played at.
1) My best guess the signal for choosing a goal is the same method as described above.
2) I was told or read somewhere the signal for choosing offense is to place a ball to the players chest and then signal first down.
3) However, the most common option of the winning captain in overtime is to choose defense. Whats the signal???<b>
Can anybody direct me to where the proper overtime signals are listed???</b> [/B][/QUOTE]

KWH,

Here's the best description I've been able to find. This comes from page 114 of the 2004 CCA 7 man Football Officiating Manual in the "Extra Periods" section:

" The referee indicates the toss winner by placing his hand on the shoulder of the appropriate captain. The options (offense, defense or end of field) are explained to and obtained from the winning captain. The remaining option is given to the captain of the team losing the toss.
Once the choices are determined, the referee instructs the captain of the team starting on offense to face the opponent's goalline. The other captain faces his opponent's goalline. The referee gives a first down signal in the direction the offensive team will be advancing."

This seems workable to me.

Re: Re: Re: Overtime coin toss signals
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KWH

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser Quote: Hey, KWH, does the manual mention what my umpire should put on his halftime brat? :) Rich- You appear to have an answer for everything, but fail to provide a solution for any of the issues. I thought the quesion I ask was pretty legit, so, why don't you prove me wrong and provide some constructive input? If you forgot the question I will repeat it: Absent of a microphone, how would you signal to the press box that the winner of the overtime coin toss has elected to go on defense?

My comment was intended to show that this is a non-issue. You make it sound as if you need a manual to tell you what to do.

We were having a legitimate conversation about a coin toss and you typed in a section of the manual and said "Enough said" as if that was a useful answer. Many of us use the manual as a guide, not as a prescription. You make it sound as if, absent the manual, there is a hole in your officiating repertoire.

Turn the teams around, tap the winning team on the shoulder and then signal a first down.

--Rich

This season I have adopted the defer signal and because if this thread will adopt the defending an end signal, and the OT mechanics discussed here.

Cool.

I think I'm a better official now.

This may have already been answered in the string 64 other responses I'm following but:

If home (the winner of the toss) chooses to defend a goal, the visitors sitll have the choice of kick or receive. In other words, home can choose to defend the east goal, and the visitors can choose to kick to them.

In the second half, the visitors would have the choice, kick/recieve or defend a goal.