What do you guys think about using the catch signal you often see in the NFL? Do any of you guys use this signal?

I used it once in a scimmage, and was "yelled" at by the umpire because "we don't use it in high school ball."

That being said, I like those types of signals. If there is a pass over the middle that is close, the catch signal can communicate with fellow officials and the fans that you definitely have a catch.

Also in communicating with the fans, things such as the "bobble" signal or the "out of bounds" signal (what NCAA officials use to indicate that a FG went wide) can be helpful so the fans know why the pass was incomplete. Anyway, just my opinion on the subject.

[Edited by PSU213 on Oct 3rd, 2004 at 11:20 PM]

Sounds like the type of U that signals a TD. :)

Rich, don't just make fun of the U, tell me how you feel about it! ;)

I think it's a useful supplementary signal. I don't know (and don't care) if it's in a book. It adds to the communication.

I reserve the right to continue making fun of the U. ;)

--Rich

At the risk of offending Snake~eyes, the U is too busy eating his snickers to signal TD (yeah, that a lame, worn out shot at umpires). Plus, umpires aren't supposed to do that high school ball.

They aren't supposed to do it anywhere. My point was this sounds like a guy who's really good at telling everyone ELSE what to do.

We ALL reserve the right to make fun of U's.

But seriously folks, I like the signal, but it is not required. The lack of an incomplete signal should be enough, along with a timeout signal if a first down is made.

I think the bobble signal is good. Also, the wind the clock signal to indicate the player was down inbounds is not required, although it adds to communication.

I don't know of anyone around here who was chewed out for using these signals although I have mentioned it to U's who gave the TD signal! THAT is a no-no!

Our association does not use it. I find it to be unnecessary. FED has signals that work well for communicating whether a pass is complete or incomplete.

I don't think any of our officials would "yell" at anyone for using it, but we would explain that it is not a FED signal and that we are often evaluated during games by both our association and state evaluators. They downgrade for use of non-Fed signals.

[Edited by GarthB on Oct 4th, 2004 at 12:45 AM]

lol, it don't offend me, you won't ever catch me at the U spot. I'll work the wings and deep but refuse to go to the middle. I just couldn't allow Rich to ding the U without letting answering the main question.

We DO NOT use this "NFL" signal, in the pregame we talk about communicating with each other on a play like this. If one official rules complete then they just go to the spot, if another official has incomplete then they would show the incomplete. A lot of people watch Sunday ball and this catch signal will only get you into trouble at the high school level (because of Sunday ball). You are screwed if one does show this signal and the ball does hit the ground, one official might have been screened (we know that a catch is ruled if someone does not see the ball hit the ground, even if it did).

With re. to your two points: I agree, no U at any level should do it, and yes, sometimes he (that particular U) can be like that.

I agree that it can be trouble if that signal is made and another official sees a reason that the pass is incomplete. Also, the signal should be used only in certain situations, and if the official is 100% certain it is indeed a catch. One example of when it can be used would be a low pass over the middle for a TD. The umpire should not signal TD (sorry to bring up another topic on this thread), but he needs to indicate to the wing guys that there was indeed a catch.

[Edited by PSU213 on Oct 4th, 2004 at 02:09 AM]

We have been told not to use it by several officials in my area. It is not needed. Either you have a catch or you have an incomplete pass. I used to not agree with that, but I see too many people using it on routine catches. I see no real need for the signal.

For all those that seem to be offended by the "NFL" comment, the reality is that we do not do everything the NFL does. But if it is accepted in your state, by all means do that. I just think we have to understand the NFL does things not for the same reasons we do things.

Just my opinion.

Peace

Don't know of anyone who uses it in may area either in NF games. Even though is a supplemental signal for NCAA, I've not used there and had many plays where it could have been used.
I feel it is just an unnessary signal. If you don't have a catch, the incomplete pass signal tells everyone that. If you have a catch, then marking the spot is good enought. I have no problem if others want to use it.

We don't use any un-approved crew signals in Alabama. I tend to agree that the catch signal (as weel as the wide signal and several others) is unnecessary. It seems like we are trying to explain our call or reassure ourselves that the call is correct when we use these type signals.

And this was my point, too. I don't work the wing often anymore, and I can't remember using this signal more than once or twice in all the time I did, but I'm not going to be anal if someone does use it, unless the other official is signalling an incomplete pass at the same time.

Of course, there's nobody to downgrade my crew over such silliness, either.

I'm looking at the signal chart in the NFHS manual right now along with the recommended crew signals. There's one I like that isn't in there -- the linesman (on a play with about five yards to go to the line-to-gain) will signal me with an open hand either forward or backward -- "five will get you one." This tells me whether a five yard penalty on the defense will yield a first down.

If it's too close that he can't tell, it means we're going to measure using the tape before marching off the penalty. I haven't had to do this yet, but I'd rather measure using the existing spot then move the ball forward and THEN bring out the chains.

I'm surprised that everyone is so rigid on signals, but maybe those folks don't work with the same crew week after week. I do, so we know what each of us are signalling. And once again, I don't have the signal police nagging us -- in any sport I work. Even in basketball I saw crews working the state final lasty year using NCAA basketball mechanics and signals. No comment whether good or bad, just my observation.

--Rich

I work with the same crews every week and we are not allowed to use the signal. That is what the powers that be say that is what we do. And I work basketball as well (you already know this of course) and there are signals that the higher levels do that you cannot do at the HS level. That is just the way it is with this.

Peace

If you do use the signals, who is there to police you? Take away assignments?

Not allowed means that there are repercussions for using the signal. I've not noticed that in IL, but I have no desire to move up the ladder there, just work the occasional assignment. I'm just not that anal about it -- I'm more concerned with calling a good game.

BTW, Jeff, Part I hoops is online as of today.

--Rich

Rich:

We have local evaluators who show up unannounced, even in lower games. A couple of weeks ago one showed up at a B-8 game 70 miles from town. Local evaluations definitely have an impact on ratings, thus on assignments.

Additionally, state evaluators show up from time to time. Their reviews can effect ratings and chances of getting state play-off games.

Fair enough. And when in Rome, I am very capable of doing as the Romans do. I know and use the proper signals and mechanics myself, but wouldn't be bothered if a wing made a catch signal.

I'm just trying to provide some balance -- it seems in every sport there is more emphasis put on which signals to use, which uniforms to wear, and whose a$$ to kiss rather than using sound judgement and good officiating practices.

--Rich

I think using extra signals like this is very helpful at times. By doing that you are indicating why the pass was incomplete. If a player bobbling is the ball on the side line before going OOB and then catches it it can be very helpful to the coaches and the fans to "tell" them why you are calling incomplete pass. The same can be said for catching the ball but not getting a foot inbounds. If you are very clear as to why you are calling it the way you are then you may have less trouble from the coaches.

I got that last week.
 

Assignors, state evaluators and even sometimes fellow officials might have a say. I am not saying you will lose a playoff assignment just because you use this signal, but you might get downgraded for using an unauthorized signal. Just like it might not hurt you to wear a "sportsmanship patch" that we used to have, but it surely cannot help if noticed. You might not lose and assignment, but you might have someone say something to you if you are seen doing it.

I am not saying you will lose all your assignments or even one assignment as a result of using an improper mechanic. I am just saying that using these types of signals might be the one of several things they might hold against you when you want to move to the next level (whatever that might be for you). My point is why give them ammo. Dave Gannaway and our Head Football Clinician are sticklers for proper mechanics. I received my first playoff game as a Registered official, because I was observed and used proper mechanics. I am not suggesting that is the only way to the top or further opportunities, but it does not hurt to use signals that are only approved by the NF and your respective state body. You know the saying, when in Rome you do as the Romans do. If it is not a big deal with your association and the powers that be in your area, then I have no personal issue with using the signal. You have to answer to them, not me. :D

I received the test either Tuesday or Wednesday of last week in the mail. I finished the day I received it in the mail. A bunch of friends this weekend will be going over the test before our association meetings start. I will let you know what I got in about a week. The test seems really easy this year. Maybe it is easier because they do not limit a topic to only four questions. It is easier to find the answers in the rulebook.

Peace

Re: I got that last week.
 

I use the IHSA online portion as a practice test for the one that counts for me -- the WIAA exam. I am going back to reciprocal status next season, so this is the last year I'll have that luxury.

I took the exam closed book in about 15 minutes last night. Scored a 93. Good enough for me -- we only need 90 in WI to retain master status.

Re: Re: I got that last week.
 

The Basketball test really was not that hard. There are a couple of questions that I cannot find the exact rule for. I also look up and list every question and the rule that covers it. That is a great way to read the rulebook as well.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: I got that last week.
 

To be honest, basketball is the easiest sport I work in terms of rules. Compared with baseball and football, basketball ALMOST runs itself.

--Rich

back on topic
 

sorry guys, I can't stand basketball, but I am glad for you and your exams...:D

Arkansas has dictated that, on an incomplete pass, we are not to signal to stop the clock. This is because "everyone" knows that the clock stops on an incomplete pass. This attitude irritates the snot out of me. I like the incomplete/stop clock combo because, when in the R position, I have a good indication of what just happened down field.

As for the catch, no catch signal, I have used both only once in the last four years. Both times when I had an excellent view on a close play. Neither time did I hear a peep from the coaches. They both thought that if I was that adamant about a call then I must be sure about my call.

Re: back on topic
 

And I find nothing more idiotic than the SEC incomplete-stop clock combo. Or the SEC TD-stop clock combo. I think you get all kind of opinions on things like this.

--Rich

Re: Re: back on topic
 

I agree. Yes, it is true that "everyone" probably is not aware that the clock stops on an incomplete forward pass, but the clock operator in a college game damn well better know it stops (excuse my French).

I personally don't see a need to use the catch signal or the bobble signal. The communication is very simple and direct. If the pass is incomplete then you give the incomplete signal. If it is complete you mark the spot and indicate the down if it is short of a first down and if it is a first down then you wind the clock and then stop the clock and indicate a first down.

How dumb would this look? A pass is thrown into the endzone that is close to the sideline. The receiver goes up and catches the pass and comes down with one foot in. It's a touchdown. You signal that it was a catch by using the catch signal and then you throw up the touchdown signal. I don't think so.

Umpires
 

Umpires are men of girth, and stamina. It ain't easy haulin' around this carcass chasing 17 year-old testerone charged young gentlemen for 2 1/2 hours.

That's why we ned Snickers, and Milky-Ways, and ...

The catch signal can get you into trouble. If you use it on a low pass and the official on the other side saw the ball on the ground!

I did use the booble one time. Two good teams , close game in the 4th quarter, energy level of players coaches and fans very high, pass on my sideline, home receiver on home side, back to sideline, boobles pass, steps out then secures ball in his hands. I gave incomplete then stop the clock. I paused looked at the coach and gave mild booble signal, then incomlete pass again. It defussed everything including the fans. Some other officials saw the game on TV and asked me about it. They agreed that it was good in that situation due to the excitement/pressure. It was a single officials call, no chance that another official would be helping me by seeing something different.

I think the only time you can really use a catch signal is on the sideline, 4/5 man mechanics when you have all responsiblity for whether it is a catch or not. Using it in the middle is not safe because someoen coudl be waving it off.

No more stupid than the NFL officials that do just that. Or make the "force out" signal before signalling a TD.

Rich,

Those are their mechanics. They are supposed to use those mechanics. They also have 19 cameras watching many of their games as well. I do not think his comments are about what the NFL does, but what do the other levels do. You know as a basketball official that what is allowed at the NF level is not the same at the NCAA level. If the "catch" signal is allowed in your area there is nothing wrong with that. But you have to understand that it is not allowed in many other places. No different than where some people put their flag, not everyone agrees to what should or should not be allowed.

Peace