How do you guys handle the cut block or block below the waist when the offense is in the shotgun formation.

Obviously it will depend on the QB position or depth on the snap. For the majority of the time I will guess he is at least 4 yards deep. Thus the ball is leaving the free blocking zone.

We have gone about it that if the offensive lineman cuts/blocks immediately then we allow it. If any hesitation we throw the flag.

Once we see it the first time as the R I go to the offensive huddle and remind the lineman it must be done immediatley if not it is a flag.

Umpires or Refs any comments or suggestions?

Do not coach.
 

I do not think you say anything. The rules are clear what can and cannot be done. If you spend time telling the coaches what they can or cannot do to me that is coaching. Also all shotgun formations are not the same. We have a few programs that run a shotgun formation with the QB about 7 or 8 yards behind the center or LOS. That also means the defense cannot hit the center under certain situations directly. If the players and coaches do not understand the rules on what they can or cannot do that is their problem. The rules are clear and safety should be our main concern. I would not ever tell the kids what they can or cannot do just on what I first see.

Peace

This exact topic was brought up at one of the preseason state meetings I attended (Ok) and we were instructed that in the shotgun the ball will leave the FBZ immediately in most instances, so BBW would be penalized in this situation.

If the line men cut as soon as the ball is snapped, this action would be legal. If they stand up and then cut, this is a penalty. This was brought up in Illinois as several teams run a shot gun formation. That was what the officials and coaches were told.

JRut

I appreciate and respect your comments but we do not call it coaching but rather look at it as "preventative officiating"

Yes I also agree that the ball does leave the zone quickly. We have also discussed the center protection rule. Now do you protect him differently if he snaps with his head up, seeing what is coming at him?

Re: Do not coach.
 

While I believe your philosophy would be true in the NCAA or NFL, most of the posts on this board deal with varsity and below. Most of the coaches really don't know the rules...do you really think the kids know. A little preventative officiating will go along way. Do you just flag them and not tell them what they did wrong? Maybe you're just above all us who enjoy working with the kids and want them to learn and better understand the rules. I'm not say you hold a class on the free blocking zone out on the field, but a simple sentence will take alot less time then administering a bunch of penalties all night.

At Varsity, and at MOST JV, I would not Coach/Preventative Officiate. The only "preventative officiating" that is appropriate at that level is the linesmen helping the WR's line up when they look out and say "I'm ON" or "I'm OFF". Maybe the occasional "Don't Do That" on mild extracurricular nonsense. Other than that, you should not be telling these kids how to block. If you have to flag it, I see no problem in coaching the COACH - and letting him handle it. (And I say MOST JV, instead of all, because there is the occasional JV game where one team is completely uncoached. Once they are getting killed on their own, preventative officiating is more appropriate)

At younger ages, I can understand telling them - but I would make it a point of telling the coach that you told them as well.

I call it coaching.
 

I have had several coaches bring this up before the game starts to me and the crews I have worked with. The coaches know the rule because they always want us to be aware of what the defense can do about hitting the center. Not to say this is exactly what the case here is, but I feel you do not need to tell them what they can or cannot do.

Now you did ask for comments, I am just sharing what I think. Do what you feel is best. I just feel you do not need to say anything. If they make a cut block and the ball is outside the FBZ, call a foul.

Peace

Re: Re: Do not coach.
 

I think the kids could misinterpret what you mean or what they can do. I think you should leave it alone and call the game accordingly. Because if you say that and they cut block and you call nothing, you would have given one team the impression that you said they were not allowed at all. If they make an illegal block then you might give the impression this is always going to get called (regardless of where the ball is located). I just think stay away from commenting. Just an opinion. ;)

Peace

What I'm talking about doing is if a kid has been legally blocking below the waist and all of a sudden he gets flagged because the QB went to a shotgun formation, he might not realize why. At the varsity level, I think it's OK to just say "you were flagged for IBB because the ball had left the free blocking zone". Now he and the rest of the team should realize the difference.

I could perhaps see that, especially if he seemed confused by the call... but I would not "preventative officiate" BEFORE a flag was thrown for this.

"Once we see it the first time as the R I go to the offensive huddle and remind the lineman it must be done immediatley if not it is a flag."

Sounds like telling them, after a LEGAL play, that another similar play would not be legal. This is what I would NOT do. Like others have said, it is more likely to confuse the kids than help.

I believe were on the same page!!

AR ruling as of Oct 1, 2004
 

BoBo, this is interesting. Twice in the last week you have posted a question/issue that was specifically addressed by my Football Association within the previous 24 hours. Are you sure you aren't in Arkansas? :D

This morning the Arkansas rules interpreter issued the following ruling on BBW while the quarterback was in the shotgun formation. Here it is:

If while in a shotgun formation, the lineman are in a three point stance, we will allow the lineman, on his initial charge, to block below the waist. If, however, the lineman are in a 2-point stance or the charge isn't immediate and the ball is snapped to a back at least 3+ yards behind the line of scrimmage, then any block below the waist will be rule illegal and there will be a penalty assessed. Just to reiterate, 3-point stance you can block below the waist on the initial charge in the shotgun. In a 2-point stance you cannot block below the waist when in the shotgun.

I for one think this is pretty good interp and specifically was driven by an series of injuries during the first half of the season.

I am in Oklahoma as well and it was decided that if the line cuts immediately after the snap then no flag. The line started their initial charge to cut block as soon as the snap happens, thus the block was started when the ball was in the free block zone, thus legal. If they come up and then cut we flag it.

Cowboyfan...seems like someone needs to pass th eowrd along etter one way or the other.

Re: AR ruling as of Oct 1, 2004
 

What has the stance got to do with it? :confused:

I don't see that as an issue. I've seen kids pass block from a 2 point stance but I've also seen them immediately cut a defender.

Re: Re: AR ruling as of Oct 1, 2004
 

From a 2 point stance, the probability that a blow above a defender's knee is increased. This type of blow significantly increases the risk of a knee injury. Therefore, no 2 point stance BBW. From a 3 point stance, the interpreters felt that the likelihood of a knee injury is no greater than normal blocking. Therefore, the difference.

The problem with is that it isn't what the rule says. There's not even a loose interp of the rule that says this.

Why would an OL be allowed to BBW if the QB is under center but not allowed to if he's in the shotgun? The risk of injury is no less because the QB is under center.

My point is that if 2 point stance blocking below the waist is illegal in the shotgun, it should be illegal in all plays. But it isn't.

I realize that you didn't invent this interp but to me, it's senseless. You either allow BBW when in the shotgun or you don't, period.

NFHS Rules 9-3 & 2-17
 

The linemen, on there initial charge, may legally BBW, as long as the ball is in the FBZ.

Re: NFHS Rules 9-3 & 2-17
 

Well, the real question is when does the ball leave the FBZ when A is in shotgun formation? Also, if the ball is in the zone, a lineman does not need to be on his/her initial charge for a BBW to be legal.

As for the original question, we allow a BBW if the charge happens right with the snap. Also, I agree with BktBallRef that the Arkansas interp. does not make a lot of sense with re. to the type of stance the players are in. I think you need to either say low blocks are legal or illegal when A is in shotgun formation, and don't bring up the type of stance the O-linemen are in.

Let's try this again! I absolutely disagree with your position on preventive officiating for a couple reasons.

1. Part of our role is to protect the player. If by warning a player about a rule can prevent a dangerous foul, then we should do it.

2. We are not coaching. We are the sole enforcers of the rules. We are not telling them what to do or not to do, but instead, telling them what is legal or not legal.

3. The game is not about us. Everyone involved wants to see the players play. If we can head off some fouls, everyone benefits.

We view it this way: In a shotgun formation, there can be NO blocking below the waist because the ball is out of the free-blocking zone as soon as the QB touches it. If you can get a low block off in the time it takes for the ball to be snapped and before it reaches the QB, then you are the quickest lineman ever and we doubt that you are.

Sent the Arkansaw interpretation to interpreters in three states. The kindest remark was that one of them wanted a bottle of whatever they'd been drinking in Arkansaw that night.

LOL! I could probably arrange that. :D

I'm curious, what states, what were their interps and why?

Coincidentally, I had a similar play recently. Our local FED Clinician advised that for practical purposes, consider the ball out of the FBZ at the snap when A is in shotgun and the QB is more than 4 yards back.

I don't know if that's an "official" state guidline or not.