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mvp2jeter Wed Sep 29, 2004 01:21am

A’s ball, 1st and 10 on B’s 35. A21 runs it to B’s 5. As he’s getting up after being tackled, A21 throws out the F-Bomb at B’s tacklers.

I award the first down from A21’s run but hit A21 with a USC and back them up 15 to the 20, making it first and goal from the 20. Is this correct or is it just 1st and 10 from the 20?

Also…

In a different game, I’ve got K on the opening kick of the second half. K77 kicks it to R’s 40 (near the sideline) where K20 tries to recover it (first touch) but doesn’t gain control of it. No other player is in the area, so he has the opportunity to fall on it again but when he gains control of it, his legs are out of bounds. I threw a beanbag (eventually) but not a flag and signaled R’s ball on R’s 40, as this was their best choice. After talking it over with our U, I now believe I should have flagged K as well (even though it would’ve had no effect on the spot in this particular case), b/c R never touched the ball before it was ruled OOB.

Thoughts?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

schmitty1973 Wed Sep 29, 2004 02:12am

1st question:
I think it should be 1st and 10 from the 20 because the line to gain was not yet established.
2nd question:
If the kick went 10 yards, then no flag and R's ball on the 40. As long as the ball goes 10 yards then anyone can get it.

Don't know if I'm right or not though.

cowbyfan1 Wed Sep 29, 2004 05:32am

Quote:

Originally posted by schmitty1973
1st question:
I think it should be 1st and 10 from the 20 because the line to gain was not yet established.
2nd question:
If the kick went 10 yards, then no flag and R's ball on the 40. As long as the ball goes 10 yards then anyone can get it.

Don't know if I'm right or not though.

You are right on both. 1st and 10 on the 20 and R's ball with a beanbag at the 40. It would be a flag if the kick was still in the air for KCI but it sounds like this was grounded so just first touching.

mikesears Wed Sep 29, 2004 06:35am

A free kick (kickoff) that goes out of bounds untouched by R is a foul even if it goes 10 yards. R can take possession where the ball went out of bounds, they can back K up 5 yards and force a rekick, or they can take the ball 25 yards beyond the previous spot.

A free kick that does not travel 10 yards, stays inbounds, and is untouched by R is not a foul so we shouldn't have a flag down. R simply takes possession where the ball is ruled dead (or where K first touches it).

PSU213 Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:15am

Quote:

Originally posted by mvp2jeter
A’s ball, 1st and 10 on B’s 35. A21 runs it to B’s 5. As he’s getting up after being tackled, A21 throws out the F-Bomb at B’s tacklers.

I award the first down from A21’s run but hit A21 with a USC and back them up 15 to the 20, making it first and goal from the 20. Is this correct or is it just 1st and 10 from the 20?

Also…

In a different game, I’ve got K on the opening kick of the second half. K77 kicks it to R’s 40 (near the sideline) where K20 tries to recover it (first touch) but doesn’t gain control of it. No other player is in the area, so he has the opportunity to fall on it again but when he gains control of it, his legs are out of bounds. I threw a beanbag (eventually) but not a flag and signaled R’s ball on R’s 40, as this was their best choice. After talking it over with our U, I now believe I should have flagged K as well (even though it would’ve had no effect on the spot in this particular case), b/c R never touched the ball before it was ruled OOB.

Thoughts?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

For part 1, it should be 1st and 10, as the line to gain is not established until the RFP.

In part 2 it is a foul for the kick "going" OOB before it was touched by R. Yes, the "best" choice for R is to take the ball where it was ruled OOB, but it is a foul, and I think it should be "recognized" as such with a flag. Plus for some reason, R may want the 5 yard penalty and the rekick.

jumpmaster Thu Sep 30, 2004 08:22am

answers with rule citations
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mvp2jeter
A’s ball, 1st and 10 on B’s 35. A21 runs it to B’s 5. As he’s getting up after being tackled, A21 throws out the F-Bomb at B’s tacklers.

I award the first down from A21’s run but hit A21 with a USC and back them up 15 to the 20, making it first and goal from the 20. Is this correct or is it just 1st and 10 from the 20?

Every casebook example for 5.1.2, Awarding a New Series, includes the provision for establishing the line to gain after a 1st down has been acheived and after a dead ball foul. In each case, the new line to gain is established AFTER the penalty is enforced.

Quote:

In a different game, I’ve got K on the opening kick of the second half. K77 kicks it to R’s 40 (near the sideline) where K20 tries to recover it (first touch) but doesn’t gain control of it. No other player is in the area, so he has the opportunity to fall on it again but when he gains control of it, his legs are out of bounds. I threw a beanbag (eventually) but not a flag and signaled R’s ball on R’s 40, as this was their best choice. After talking it over with our U, I now believe I should have flagged K as well (even though it would’ve had no effect on the spot in this particular case), b/c R never touched the ball before it was ruled OOB.

Casebook 6.1.8 provides the situation where K2 muffs the ball out of bounds on an attempted onside kick. K is flagged for a free kick out of bounds.

In this example, K2 provides the force that causes the ball to be out of bounds, prior to a touch by R. In your example since K20 causes the ball to be out of bounds, I would deduce that 6.1.8 applies in this case.

PSU213 Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:14am

Re: answers with rule citations
 
Quote:

Originally posted by jumpmaster
In this example, K2 provides the force that causes the ball to be out of bounds, prior to a touch by R. In your example since K20 causes the ball to be out of bounds, I would deduce that 6.1.8 applies in this case.
Just as a note, on free kicks, it doesn't matter if K "forces" the ball out. All that matters is that the kick is untouched by R when it goes OOB (6-1-8).

JugglingReferee Fri Oct 01, 2004 05:53am

Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mvp2jeter
A’s ball, 1st and 10 on B’s 35. A21 runs it to B’s 5. As he’s getting up after being tackled, A21 throws out the F-Bomb at B’s tacklers.

I award the first down from A21’s run but hit A21 with a USC and back them up 15 to the 20, making it first and goal from the 20. Is this correct or is it just 1st and 10 from the 20?

Also…

In a different game, I’ve got K on the opening kick of the second half. K77 kicks it to R’s 40 (near the sideline) where K20 tries to recover it (first touch) but doesn’t gain control of it. No other player is in the area, so he has the opportunity to fall on it again but when he gains control of it, his legs are out of bounds. I threw a beanbag (eventually) but not a flag and signaled R’s ball on R’s 40, as this was their best choice. After talking it over with our U, I now believe I should have flagged K as well (even though it would’ve had no effect on the spot in this particular case), b/c R never touched the ball before it was ruled OOB.

Thoughts?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

(1) Objectionable Conduct, penalize as though no other foul happened on the play. 10 yards, 1D/10 from the 15.

(2) This is a good one. Incidental/unknown illegal participation. I'll have to look that one up.

jumpmaster Fri Oct 01, 2004 09:13am

Re: Re: answers with rule citations
 
Quote:

Originally posted by PSU213
Quote:

Originally posted by jumpmaster
In this example, K2 provides the force that causes the ball to be out of bounds, prior to a touch by R. In your example since K20 causes the ball to be out of bounds, I would deduce that 6.1.8 applies in this case.
Just as a note, on free kicks, it doesn't matter if K "forces" the ball out. All that matters is that the kick is untouched by R when it goes OOB (6-1-8).

Thanks for the info. Could you please provide a reference or published interpretation?

BoBo Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:44am

Check out Rule 6-section-article 6 & 7 & 8


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