if the offense breaks the huddle with 12 players what is the penalty?

Illegal Substitution.

We've been instructed (NJ) that having 12 in the huddle, or even simply breaking the huddle with 12 is not necessarily a penatly IF the 12th player moves to his sideline imeadiately after the team breaks the huddle and he does so in a manner that does not confuse the defense.

The offense is allowed to complete their substitution. If a sub comes in late and the huddle is breaking then the offense is allowed to complete the substitution without penalty as long as the replaced player leaves in a timely manner.

The White Hat will have to make this call as he is usually the nearest the huddle and can see how the substituting is being handled.

NFHS Rule 3-7-5 During a down a replaced or substitute who attemps unsuccessfully to leave the field and who does not participate in or effect the play, constitutes an illegal substitution.
Note Participation by a replaced player or substitute is illegal participation as in 9-6-3.

I run the wing and more often than not we will catch this before the umpire or the ref and bust them for 5 rather than for 15 yards.

The White hat does not know who is running to the sideline all the time. Especially when the WH is dealing with other things in that game. The wings are in perfect position to see who is running in and out of the huddle.

Peace

I as a white hat make it my responsibility since it is part of my job.
I am at the LOS. I check to make sure ball, box and if on first down chains are set. Blow the ready. Turn around and count players in the huddle. If I have 12 I give them a couple seconds to sort it out for themselves. If noone leaves, I flag it.

dallas, many coaches (and some officials) think that simply breaking with 12 is illegal. As waltjp indicates it's not necessarily the case. I'm also from NJ (South Joisey where we drink wudder) and in our rules interp they made it clear we needed to pay attention to the word "immediately" in the rules. We discussed that should be somewhere around 5 seconds.

Dallas ... if you're in DALLAS, you're being told incorrectly here. Texas is under NCAA rules.

Rule 3-5-2-c: ..."Team A may not break its huddle with 12 or more players."

Period.

Ever consider there might be more than one DALLAS?

you obviously aren't from TX. :D

There is only one Dallas.

However since maybe it's his NAME, and not his location, I typed "if you're in Dallas".

this dallas is in kansas!

No, No, No sir!
 

Yes sir, You are right mcrowder!
Well almost right.
There is only one Dallas, er, um,
in each of the following states that is:

Dallas, Georgia
Dallas, Iowa
Dallas, South Dakota
Dallas, North Carolina
Dallas, Wisconsin
Dallas, Pennsylvania
Dallas, Oregon
Dallas, West Virginia,
and
there is even a Dallas located somewhere in Texas.

Only one of the above listed nine Dallas's uses NCAA rules.
The other eight use NFHS rules.

So all things considered, your statement,<b>"There is only one Dallas"</b> would be incorrect sir!

Yes, but what I meant by that was that there is only one Dallas. The rest are pretenders.

Anyway to Dallas the person...
 

To Dallas the person in Kansas.
Dallas, to assist you in better understanding the logic behind what the NFHS wants called and what they don't want called, the NFHS made Substitition and Participation a point of emphasis this year. In your 2004 rule book on pages 72 thru 74 they spelled out their philosophy along wih some case plays. It is well written and a good learning tool.
Example play 1 address your question.
Remember, however when reading it that if Johhny (A12) forgets to tell Billy (A11) that he is replacing him, "some judgment discretion in application is of the term immediatly" is required.
I hope this helps.

I am in CT and we interped that if the offense sends a 12th man into the huddle, we give them until the huddle breaks before we flag. If the player runs on to the field as the huddle is breaking and the replaced player runs off, thats fine. We note that breaking the huddle with 12 is not necessarily a foul, unless the replaced player doesn't leave the field immediately after the 12th player has entered the huddle.