I was working a game on Friday night, in which my wing man made a block in the back call. It was an interception, and the defender returned the interception 40 yards for a TD. I was the umpire and was watching all of the blocks surrounding the runner. The wing man called the block in the back at about the 10 yard line. I was able to see the block as clear as day, and it was SO OBVIOUS that the block was on the side which anyone could tell just by the way the player fell to the ground. I tried talking to the R before he made the initial signal, but he didnt want an argument over the call, so he made the signal and had me mark off the penalty. After the play, I saw the coach chewing out his player for the block, in which I could hear the player telling his coach that the block was on his side. It took all the energy I had just to bite my tongue. I tried speaking to the wing man after the game, and his attitude was like, I made the call and that was the end of it. I couldnt beleive he wouldnt own up to his mistake. Does anyone have any good advice how to handle a situation like this?


[Edited by bjudge on Sep 26th, 2004 at 04:01 PM]

Nothing you can do. Some officials are just flag happy. I know I was my first year--and I'm definately ashamed of it. I threw too many flags without seeing the whole play. That's probably what happened here.

Some officials see someone fall and imagine that somewhere there HAD to be an illegal block. Like I said, I used to be like that. It's hard to tell yourself "See the whole play". Kick returns--with 22 bodies flying around--are real succeptable to not seeing the whole play.

I dont know how good this adavice is but I think you’ve done all you can do and all you should do. Whether he admits it or not, you’ve made the calling official aware he may have made a mistake. Hopefully he remembers what you’ve said and next time he calls a quality foul

The fact that you thought the wing man was wrong the Ref should have listened but just remeber no matter what is said or done on the field you are a CREW that is one thing that needs to remain constant.

Good comments, even though the kid got chewed I'm sure he will take it back after he sees the game film and blame the refs.

I'm most proud of my crew on flags that weren't thrown.

I'm following the quarterback flushed out of the pocket Friday night and there was a CRUSHING block from the side on a pursuer -- the block was definitely not from the front and the recipient of the block didn't see it coming -- but, contrary to popular belief, was a perfectly clean hit. Wing man saw it as did I. And then he got the pleasure of hearing crap from the sidelines -- the usual, "Someone's gonna get hurt" blah, blah, blah.

Tell us more about the experience level of you and the wing man. Understand, you are talking about a judgement call in which you and the WM have different angles - that alone could alter your judgements on a close play. As an observer and an instructor, I worry much more about the position the official is in and the area he is observing to make a call than the judgement itself. Judgement is just like an opinion - everyone has one!

No official likes his judgement questioned - not by fans, not by players or not by coaches - and especially from a fellow official who may not have his experience level. If you are inexperienced, you may have just learned your first major leason. The only friends you have on the field wears stripes and you had better learn to trust and back them even if you personally disagree with their judgement at times. Only when there is a history of poor judgement by an individual should you make it an issue. The right to critique in most officials eyes, comes with experience and longevity. Even then - you had better have more evidents than your opinion is better than his.

Are you sure?
 

As a Referee I do not question the calls of my fellow crew members. If they call it, they are guilty. The only time I would ever take an issue with a call is when I have definite information that might help them come to another conclusion. Like a tipped ball on a PI call. Other than that I will not entertain objections to a call unless a fellow official knows for 100% sure they had a different look. If someone starts a sentence with "I think...." the conversation is over.

It is also possible that you did not see the same thing he did or the same block. Maybe you saw another action and came to another conclusion.

We all make mistakes. It is not the end of the world.

Peace

Evidently not, because you had a guy closer than you call it different.... I agree with Rut...if I am a WH I don't entertain much discussion about another officials call...the proper procedure would be to get to the official in question, and ask them if they had a good look, because what you saw appeared different...but it is their call as to whether or not to change the call....and like was said above we are a crew out there...

I was working HL Friday night and there is a long runback on an interception return down my sideline and a B player delivered a solid hit to the side of an A player. It was perefectly clean. The R (who was trailing by quite some distance "parachutes" a flag near the spot of this block. At the end of the play, coach on my side (who intercepted and saw the clean block) wants to know the number of the offender. R didn't get it. It is possible he saw another BIB but my gut tells me he flagged what I was certain was a clean hit. Coach wasn't too happy but didn't press it AT ALL!

Watching the local sports highlights the next day, they showed a highlight of that exact play and it looked clean (again) and the sports announcer then says, "and I believe this hit drew a flag. Looked clean to me."

Yeah, me too.

[Edited by mikesears on Sep 26th, 2004 at 10:34 PM]

Well this is my third season, and second year of varsity. Even in our association, moving up to varsity at that speed is rare. However, I work year round doing tons of semi pro indoor and outdoor football games during the offseason, so I have worked more games than a typical third year official.

That being said, the view I had of the block was prefectly clear. Lets just say I could see the player's entire back and read his number, when this "block in the back occured." The player was thrown sideways instead of being thrown forward as a result of a typical block in the back. I was approximately 20 yards behind the block when it occured. The wing man was about parallel to the block when it occured. I beleive this is his fifth year and second year as a varsity official. When I asked the wing man about the call, all he could tell me about the block was the player was blindsided, and he couldnt tell me if the block was between the shoulder blades or not. If he had anything, it could have been a personal foul, since the block was behind the runner and the player had no chance of tackling the runner. However, unless the block was 30 yards away from the play, I would have a hard time calling a personal foul on a situation like that.

bjudge,

Maybe he did not know how to explain it. That does not make his call a bad call. And if that is all you can say, you probably had a pretty good game. Let me tell you, your time will come. You will mess up on a bunch of calls if you continue to officiate. I would not focus so much on the shortcomings of other officials. Your time WILL COME.

Peace

RUTLEDGE,

I would be the first to admit I have had my share of bad calls. As one official in my association says, you only learn from your bad calls. Also, I have had my share of games where there was a bad call. If and when I make a mistake, I dont mind another official giving me good criticism and I dont have a problem eating my flag and waving it off if I am wrong. I guess the thing that rubbed me the wrong way this time around was the WM didnt seem to care or admit he could have made a mistake. If I throw my flag, I make sure I am a 100% right. I would rather make a bad call and keep my flag in my pocket, then to throw my flag and call a bad penalty.

Get a tape of the game a review it. Point it out to the ref and wingman and ask them how it is a block in the back. There is a big misconception that anything from a player coming from behind is a block in the back, even if that player hits the other player on the side. That is probably where he is getting the thinking from.

FED rules
 

Does this matter? If so, please provide citation. I can't find where a block in the back constitutes between the shoulder blades. I have looked a t 9-3-5 and 2-17-4 and neither refers to this specific action.

Many "Blindsided" hits seem to draw a flag. Just because a player is blindsided doesn't mean he was blocked in the back. His concentration is on the runner and in many instances his head is turned. If I am working a wing and this occurs on my side and I am within an earshot of the coach I yell "Clean Hit" so he knows I was watching and what my opinion is right now.

What is your point?
 

You only have about 2 years of varsity experience. That is not very long compared to many here. All I am saying you will make a call that your partners will not agree with. It does they are right.

It was just one block in the back call. If that was the only call you or anyone does not agree with, that sounds like he had a good game. You are coming here and making it sound like the game was lost because of this one call. If you work long enough at this, you will have many more calls you are not going to agree with. We are not perfect. You might need to see it on tape and see if the foul was different. As a WH, I would not care what your opinion was. Trust your partner.

Peace

Guys,

My opinion is simply this, come together and talk. Communication is key for all crews at any level. Come together, talk about what happened. I dont care if it takes five minutes, our job is to get it right. Cant really comment on the play because i wasn't there, but it seems the communication def. was absent.

Re: FED rules
 

I don't know what the official definition of an IBB is in Rule 2. I do know in the rules simplified and illustrated book, it pretty much says that for IBB to be called the INITIAL contact must come from behind, and on the numbers.

Re: FED rules
 

Rule 2.5.2 Blocking in the back against an opponent when the initial contact is in the opponents back, INSIDE THE SHOULDERS and below the helmet and above the waist....

Re: Re: FED rules
 

duh...thanks...

What is that going to solve?
 

Coming together is not going to solve anything if the calling official feels he saw the play.

I think this is splitting hairs. Both officials saw two different things, it does not mean you have to "get it right" in that situation.

Peace

Re: What is that going to solve?
 

I cant disagree more. Our job is to "get it right". When a call like this occurs during a game my crew works, we play a game called "what did you see". The officials involved in the foul/non-foul/enforcement come together with the referee and we explain what we saw. In every situation, another official may have had a better angle or may have noticed something before the foul that would help with the enforcement. I have experienced instances on the high school and NCAA level where communication can really help during a call like this.

In addition, if the calling offical "feels" he has the play right, and another official who also saw the play has a different "feeling", then a conference is a must. Its possible that one official didnt see the whole play. So to your comment that coming together will not solve anything, your right, it wont. Because the correct call may not have been called.

Re: Re: What is that going to solve?
 

I have heard this all the time. Where does it say that? Can you give me a mechanics book, a rulebook or any publication that the rules committee signs off on that agrees with that statement?

You are missing the point. No one has said communication is not good. But if I see one thing and you see something else, someone has to back down. If I made a call and you did not, it is my choice to take your advice. Maybe I am a more experience and I do not believe the younger official? There could be all kind of reasons I or any official that makes a call stand by their call. What you tell me is not going to automatically change that.

My comment about coming together is not going to solve anything, is that the calling officials can easily dismiss the opinion of the non-calling official. We are not talking about a tipped pass and there is a DPI called despite the tipped pass (as took place in the Bears-Vikings game yesterday). We are talking about strictly judgment. You cannot change a call based strictly on judgment. The rules do not allow it and as a WH I would not allow it.

You cannot just change a call because you think it was wrong. You have to have more information than, “no it wasn't."

Peace

Re: Re: What is that going to solve?
 

[/B][/QUOTE]
I cant disagree more. Our job is to "get it right". [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with Patsfan. Although it is almost impossible to have a debate on every call, I beleive officials should communicate on big calls like in my scenario. The block in the back which is in question, called back a touchdown. If we were to assume I was right for the sake of argument, someone's bad call just cheated the player out of a good play.

There are some officials that try to be a detectives in making calls, while other officials try to be a mediator and use common sense in making calls. If you have someone on your crew that is flag happy, it could bring down the whole crew and a good game. That is why communication is important.

[Edited by bjudge on Sep 27th, 2004 at 07:23 PM]

Wait a minute???
 

bjudge,

Let us say for the sake of argument you missed the call? Now what? Should we now change the call on wrong information? When is the call right? When is the call wrong? See the problem you have created? You have two officials that do not agree on a "judgment call" and which person are we going to go with? Are we going to go with the guy that has more experience? Are we going to go with the official that had the better angle? How do we resolve this? When do we change the call and when do we not? If the call was so obvious, why was the coach chewing on the kid and not the official?

This is not as easy as you would like this to be. There are a lot of areas of gray that play apart in this. He threw the flag and saw something, you better have more information than, “I saw it a different way" in my opinion.

Peace

Rut, I mean no disrespect and I have learned alot from referees with more experience. But alot of your comments seem like that you have no faith in officials without alot of on the field experience. Because an official is new does not mean they dont "see" things correctly. I would tend to wager that I spend more time studying than alot of other officials that have 10 times more experience than I do. I am willing to spend whatever energy and time is necessary to get better, but not if it means that I am going to work with people that dont care what I bring to the table.
To say that there is 'no need for discussion' and 'getting things right are not relevant' is really demoralizing to hear as a young official. Makes me think that even if I KNOW !!! and I mean KNOW that I am right, that I shouldnt bother because I wont have any weight in the discussion with the WH. I thought the idea was to get it right, if it isnt that... then what is it ???

JRut - but can I overrule you?







JUST KIDDING! I don't want you know who to come back!

Not sure why you got that out of my posts?
 

Comments like what? This is not about experience or lack of experience. I am just living in the real world. If you are a younger official, you better make sure you are correct when you try to "question" their call. It better not just be a judgment situation that you are taking an issue with. Now I have 9 years of varsity experience and the experience and the knowledge of the officials I am working with are important. What do you think a 20 year veteran with a couple of State Titles under their belt think of a two year official? What do you think a coach thinks of the two year official as compared to the State Final Official or crew?

This has nothing to do with a new official or not a new official. But if you are a rookie, you better be sure you are right. The veteran might get the benefit of the doubt and the rookie have eliminated himself from future assignments. Especially if the tape does not back you up.

That is life. Officiating is not much different than any other aspect of sports. An Emmitt Smith has much more respect amongst his peers as compared to a Quentin Griffin. One has been to Super Bowls and one MVP awards and the other has just had one big game in his career. Dude that is just the way it is until you prove yourself as an official.

I have a saying on my crew, “if you call it they are guilty." I do not question my partners or my partner's calls. I do not care if you are a 20 year veteran or a 1 year rookie. I do not question my partner's calls not matter what I think I saw. I will provide information that will help them make a call, but I am not changing it when I have a different angle and probably a different look. I work 3 sports and in all of them I work with my partners as a team. We are not a bunch of individuals out there; we work together as a unit. If you are coming to me as the WH about a fellow officials call, you did not do your job. You should have went to the calling official and asked them what you saw. By the time it comes to me it is too late. For one as a WH I probably did not see the play that warranted the flag. I am not going to just take your opinion over the person that threw the flag. If that bothers you, well that is just too bad. As the WH I am not there to make friends, I am there to run the game. The game runs better when our partner's calls are not questioned. What is to say that when he does that to you, he is correct? Are we going to spend the entire night changing calls because another official thinks the call is wrong?

Let me say this too. I am a veteran like many others. I do not consider myself as at the top, but I have been held responsible for the actions of younger officials at times by assignors or evaluators because I was the "senior" official on the game. I earned that right through hard work and proving myself when I was given a big opportunity. That is the case in all the sports I work. But I have been the young guy (and I still am sometimes) in games where I am the one wet behind the ears. I worked a big game last year in the basketball season where I was the only non-playoff, non-state final official on a big game. It was obvious what my role was and it was not to tell my partners what I think I can or cannot do. I work on a football crew every Saturday where I am the only official that has not worked a single state final as well. I had to earn their respect for a couple of years working with them. I probably have done that, but still have to be careful how I work with that crew. If it is going to bother you to have a veteran tell you to watch your place, then you are going to have a lot of problems in this officiating thing. That is going to come with the territory. And yes, if you see something and all you have is a different judgment, you might find yourself getting a bad reputation for your attitude.

This is meant to be a slam at all. I understand your point of view, but the experience level of an official means a lot. You have to prove yourself on many levels before you start telling fellow officials what you have. That even applies sometimes with fellow veteran officials so you will have problems if you cannot deal with that part of it.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Sep 27th, 2004 at 09:26 PM]

I just knew........
 

someone was going to bring that up. <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_109v.gif' alt='No No No' border=0></a>

Peace

The biggest thing Rut is right about is in this situation
the call is a judgement call so you have to trust each others judgement. I think he made a good analogy to the DPI that has to be vaived off when the ball is tipped. I have had it happen on more than one occasion where (6man) in doing what i am supposed to i never see the passes origin and i might throw the flag but U comes runing in saying NO IT WAS TIPPED. I eat that one because its U's job to see the Tip. Mine to see the contact. My back judge (im a field judge) never comes to me if i throw a dpi and says....he played the ball pick it up.... we may talk about it later so we understand how each other work and look at things. Here is a good example

on friday we had a long pass down the middle and i saw b stick his foot out purposely to cause a to fall and not cath a pass. the foot he stuck out was the one on my side so the BJ didnt see it

I flagged it instantly he didnt. He just went and covered my flag and I went in and reported it WH called it and it was marched off

at halftime BJ asked me why I threw the flag I explained what i saw and he said good call I was so busy watching his hands I just assumed he got his leg tangled up.

HE OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T THINK IT WAS DPI....BUt he waited until the right time to talk because it was MY JUDGEMENT and not a mis app of the rules.

I think thats what was had in this instance and what rut was tring to tell you

We work as the same crew all year and our rules are simple
(we go over them in pregame)

1) call what you see
2) if you think you have something, you dont
3) never qusetion your or any other crewmembers judgement
4) If you tink a rule or enforcement is being misapplied speak up
5) sell every call even the obvious
and lastly (said when we converge at the 50 after the cointoss) DONT F$#CK UP

I can appreciate that perspective. The key word in all of that was "crew" we are and need to be a team. Judgement is just that, hopefully we all get them right all the time. All the more reason live by the saying... If you "think" its a foul, its not.
The dialogue here is never meant to be demeaning, I think only enlightening, personal is personal, and professional is professional. One must be able to seperate the two.

Ok, not to belabor this any further, but here is my question. If two officials are in position to make the call and one official throws a flag and the other one doesn't, why should the one official that throws the flag automatically overrule the official that didnt throw his flag. Both officials made a call, whether it is right or wrong. Why should the penalty be marked off without any further communication between the two officials, or at least with the R?

Some of the comments I have read seem to indicate that the person with the flag is the one that made the call. However, are we ignoring the fact that the other official made a call as well and that sometimes a good no call, is the right call?

I do not think you get it. You probably never will.


The White hat has nothing to do with the call other than reporting it (at least in this example). Why is the Referee going to take your word over the official that made a call? "I saw something different." You would have to do better than that.

No one is ignoring anything. What you keep missing is that your opinion about a call is no more valuable than your partner's. If you constantly have a different opinion then your partner, are we going to have a conference on every call or play? Are we going to have to debate every decision? So you had a different angle, guess what you will always have a different angle than your partner. It is very possible you might even disagree with your partner from time to time. A good Referee is not going to take your word just based on judgment. You have conferences to get rule applications right and make sure you enforce a penalty properly, not for who agrees that the call was right. I am sure if we ask the calling official, he would think you were wrong. So what have we accomplished? We have two different officials that saw the same play differently? You said it was obvious, but the coaches chewed out the kid for committing the foul. Interesting, I have done many games where the coaches disagree with me rather than just chew on the kid. It must not have been obvious to everyone.

I said this before. We are going to make mistakes. When you have a perfect game it will be time to hang up the whistle. I have never had one, I am sure you will never have one. I have yet to see one. There are always calls that could be up for debate. Ask guys in the NFL or D1, they get downgrades for calls all the time. Maybe if you see it on tape, you might change your mind. Maybe if he sees it on tape he will agree with you? Or maybe not? But this is just my opinion. :rolleyes: I am sure you know better than I do, considering you have all but 2 years of varsity experience. I think the rest of us should just listen to you and throw out all the normal practices because you see it differently.

Peace

EXCELLENT POINT!!! Much is said in Basketball and Baseball about being as still as possible while watching the action. Your eyes cannot focus as well when your head is moving as they can when it is stationary. In football, however, most calls in a four or five man crew are made while on the run. Due to the bouncing of the head, your eyes can deceive you.

There are two camps on this issue. One believes mistakes are not correctable, and the other believes it is important to get it correct. Watch a few games on Sunday you will see the officials huddle several times. Do you think they are in there saying "Bill you missed that one, but we will have to live with it because you threw your flag."? No! They are in there telling Bill what they saw and they are moving toward a decision on what should be called.

Rut - up until this last post, most of what you said has been constructive. This last one was uncalled for. He as much as admitted he didn't "get" it, and was asking for input - so instead you berate him. Totally unnecessary. He sounds like a new guy who wants to learn. Don't you want people like this in your association? Besides - he had a good question ... one I asked when I was new.

bjudge - there are a number of reasons why, when one official makes the judgement call to throw a flag, and another makes the judgement call to NOT throw a flag, on the same play, you tend to favor the one that threw the flag.

First and foremost is that with so much to look for, if one official sees what he considers a foul, and another doesn't, it is not necessarily that one decision was better than another. It is likely that the foul was only observable from one angle, and in most cases like this, there WAS a foul. (In the case that began this post, it is entirely possible that the new guy made a mistake, but it's equally possible that he had a better (or simply different) angle than you --- but even if he made a mistake, in the long run you are better off living with the mistake and using it to teach or learn).

Another secondary reason is that for the credibility of the crew, it looks bad to be continually waving off flags. Also, if a new official starts having his flags "overruled", he is likely to eventually become flag-shy, and a worse official. A far better way to handle things has been mentioned repeatedly above - communicate.

REPLY: Since "experience" has been made the criteria by which some seem to judge the validity of posts on this board, I'll offer my own opinion. The issue here really isn't who was right and who was wrong. The real issue is that the crew didn't appear to have the stomach for coming together and to discuss two officials' views of what occurred. And yes--the B (the poster) who passed on the call because he saw it as a block from the side made a call just as surely as the wingman who dropped the flag. They were obligated to come together to get it right. The wing made a mistake in allowing his ego to overrule his responsibility to the game, and the R erred in placing more emphasis on taking the easy way out. Should they have met to "get it right?" Absolutely. All levels of officiating have that as their underlying principle. So what happens if they do come together and still disagree on whether or not a flag was deserved? Ed Hochuli (he has more experience than all of us) says that in such a case, it's up to the R to make a decision. He says that the determining factor for him is which official had the better view of the play (distance and angle) and go with his call.

Thanks Bob, You clearly made my point of communication is key. JRut, thanks for your input, because without it, i didn't see it from the other side. Although, i still believe communication, from all officials involved in the enforcement is key to "Getting it right". I know the phrase is not printed or published in any official publication, but thats my motto, and thats what our job is.

Rut on "getting it right":

"I have heard this all the time. Where does it say that? Can you give me a mechanics book, a rulebook or any publication that the rules committee signs off on that agrees with that statement?"

Rut, could you please clarify this statement. Are you saying that getting it right is less important than appearing to be right? Or am I misinterpreting you?

In this situation I would meet up with the calling official by the R (as running towards him before he reports it telegraphs to everyone that you don't agree), and in a calm manner (with an absolute minimum of body language) say something like: "Jim, you sure he hit him in the back? From my angle, it looked like the initial contact was from the side". If Jim says, "no, I got a good look, that's a definite foul", then I'm done. If he feels unsure, and is "big" enough to admit that he might not have had the best look, he can indicate that, and we can arrive at a conclusion together.

An official who thinks all his calls are always correct, and does not accept input from someone else on the crew, is someone I don't want to work with.

I STAND BY MY WORDS!!!
 

I disagree. There are a lot of new guys that want to learn, they do not keep telling everyone that their opinion is better than everyone else. There is a newer official in my association that has every self representing official running the other way when they have to work with him at the Pee Wee level. Why, because he thinks he knows more than everyone that has more experience than he does and constantly tells people what he feels is best. If you do not like that, I guess you will just have to be upset. I stand by my comments and my feelings about this.

NO ONE OFFICIALS IS BIGGER THAN THE CREW!!! I do not care what anyone says, we are a team on the field. And just because you have a different view, does not make your judgment automatically any better than you fellow official working the game. Discuss it at halftime. Discuss it after the game. Discuss it during the tape review. But to think you are going to have a debate on the field about your “opinion” is ridiculous. Officials like that would not be working very long in my parts and I know in many parts.

Peace

Quote: "NO ONE OFFICIALS IS BIGGER THAN THE CREW!!! I do not care what anyone says, we are a team on the field. And just because you have a different view, does not make your judgment automatically any better than you fellow official working the game." End quote.

Rut, you do realize that I could use the exact same arguments for "my side" of this? ;)

Regarding rookies who think they know it all, I think that's another debate. I agree this is sometimes a problem.

I really do not understand what you are misinterpreting, because I do not believe in the blanket statement, "get it right." Are we out there to get it wrong? If I make a call do I think I got it wrong? Am I not using judgment to make a call?

I know I work out to stay in shape. I study a lot of the rulebook and the mechanics books. I attend association meetings. I attend clinics all in the effort of getting the calls that I have to make right. Does that mean I will get them all right? Of course not. When I make a judgment call, I do not want someone that had a different angle, might not have seen the same thing I did, telling me we need to discuss that call. If we do that once, when does it stop? I do not see them doing it in the NFL? I do not see basketball officials telling a calling official that foul they just called was not a foul? I do not see a baseball umpire in the field come in and tell they plate umpire that the pitch he called a ball was a strike.


This is not what he did. At least in his example, he goes to the Referee who does not see the play at all (at least from the story) and tries to appeal to him. It is too late at that point. He needs to convince the official that threw the flag, not the person reporting it.

I do not want to work with officials that cannot trust their partners. There are always situations and circumstances where help or discussion is necessary, <b>but this is not one of them.</b> We cannot change calls based on opinions. If that is the case we could discuss every call made. Sometimes we are just going to have to live with our partner's calls. If they are not doing the job, then have them replaced. But most of the time you are not going to know that on the field, you will figure it out when the tape comes back or the assignor or evaluator makes a determination. I cannot stand working with people that cannot follow proper procedure.

Peace

REPLY: The important thing to realize in this situation is that each official made a judgement in the play. The fact that the wing's judgment resulted in putting a rag on the ground should be given no more weight than that of B whose judgment said there was no foul. Each judgment has equal validity until a determination is made as to whose call should stand. And that determination cannot wait until halftime or after the game. It must be discussed in the moment. After the game is a good time to discuss <b>why</b> there might have been a disagreement (positioning, angle, seeing part of the play, etc.) but you must resolve the disagreement in the context of the game at that time. The wing's refusal to hear any dissent and the R's avoidance of dealing with legitimate disagreement both were shining examples of making themselves "bigger than the crew."

A question for bjudge: Is this a crew that regularly works together or was it just a group of independent officials who were put together for that game? The answer to that question is paramount to understanding why the correct dynamics were not in evidence. It's a question of trust.

How am I saying that I or anyone with my opinion on this is bigger than the crew? I am saying to trust your partner and their decisions. Understand we are hearing one side of this story. He has not in detail told us how the foul could not be in the back? Was the initial contact in the back with the left hand or right hand? Which side was the head on? All I am hearing it was SO OBVIOUS that there was not a foul, the coach yelled at the player instead of the official that made the call.

Do we think that the calling official might have a different take or different opinion on what the call was?

Peace

Well if the NFL and D1 Conferences have meetings for hours before their games to discuss why the evaluators downgraded them for calls and no calls, I think we can discuss plays after the fact just like them. All I am hearing is the word "disagreement." I am not hearing anything about whose opinion are we going to agree with? I just have an official disagree and if they both are sure of their call, what next? Folks have even said that if the calling official is "unsure" then we might go with the non-calling official. But that did not happen here. We do not know how sure he was. The disagreement was never discussed with him from what I am reading. :rolleyes:

Peace

I want to add my two cents. If we go to another official with an "I think", we might as well just quit right there. We aren't doing anything to get the call right.

However, if we can go to an official and say, "I am 100% certain of what I saw, what did you see?" then we should go to the calling official and let him change his call if he wants. I'm not changing it for him but I am giving him information to allow the calling official to change it.

I do believe that we should "get it right" but only when we can offer 100% assurance of what we saw. And yes, I've seen NFL crews do this on occasion.

REPLY: I mentioned in an earlier post how to handle it (Hochuli's method). If either official isn't 100% sure of his call, he's out and the other guy's call stands. Frankly, if he isn't 100% sure, he shouldn't have made a call (positive or negative) in the first place. If both are sure of what they saw, then the R needs to arbitrate. Consider where each official was relative to the call in question (position, angle, distance, moving or standing still), and go with the guy who you feel was in the better position to see the whole play.

postgame
 

Everyone talks about how important it is to have a good pregame and I agree 100%. But it is equally as important to have a good postgame. This is a great topic for a postgame discussion. Postgame discussion works really well if it can be constructive and not get too personal but if ego gets in the way as it can you may have a few problems to work out. You always have to keep in the back of your mind that it is all in the angle. Sometimes the person who has to make the call does not always have the best angle. If your crew is tight, getting together for a litlle discussion will probably work. But on a mixed crew with a wide range of experience or ego problems it will not always go as smooth as we would like.

What happens if the R is the one who made the "bad call"? :D

OR a better way to ask, "What happens if it is the R with whom you disagree?"

REPLY: Remember Harry Truman..."The buck stops here." If the R's judgment and yours are at odds, chances are good that his judgment will prevail. But that's something he will need to live with. A game tape could go a long way to proving he's wrong...or maybe that he's right...but the discussion must take place and you must go through the process.

Good question Mike.
 

I was thinking the same thing. So if I call a Roughing the Passer call, why should I listen to my partner that saw something different? Am I supposed to agree with him if he shares a different philosophy as to when we have RTP? What about RTK or R into the K? What about holding calls? Am I supposed to pick up my flag because my partner shares a different philosophy than I do? Should I tell my partner his holding call did not affect the play? What are the disagreements suppose to be about? Philosophy or what we saw as well?

See how far we can take this.

Peace

In our association, the arbiter and computer sends you to a different crew every week. Sometimes you recognize officials you are working with that night, and sometimes you dont. On this particular occasion, I have worked with the WM in question before, and I do beleive some of his calls are questionable. Whether this is a good or bad point, if this call was made by an official that I respected we probably wouldnt be having this discussion.

Why must you go thru the process? Why does the Referee have to be proven on tape to be right or wrong and the other officials can have their judgments questioned? You seem to have a double standard here. ;)

Peace

This is the real issue.
 

Now we are getting to the nitty gritty. You basically do not respect this official, so no matter what he called you would have questioned. I have worked with guys that I feel the same way about, but I do not challenge their judgment. I just try not to work with them any more. Either I do not accept the game or I just deal with it.

Peace

REPLY: This might explain it somewhat. If this was an "established" crew, it is entirely possible that your wing man would have been receptive to your disagreement with his call. Not saying he would automatically agree with you, but at least he'd be willing to hear you out. Likewise, the R probably wouldn't have been so quick to disregard your concern that the the block was legal. You would have conferred and come to a conclusion. It's all a matter of trust--trust that disagreement is not personal but professional in the context of the game; trust that disagreement is not an attempt to denigrate the other official but is a sincere attempt to get the call right. My crew has been together for over twenty years and we would never hesitate to speak to a colleague right then and there if we thought he might have made an error.

As far as your personal opinion of your wing man's abilities, I really think you need to get past that. It doesn't make him automatically wrong if the two of you disagree.

I agree and that is what I try to do. However, the way I saw the play, it seemed to be clear cut that it wasnt the right call, so I guess I didnt give him the benefit of the doubt. However, if it was an official I respected, not sure if I would feel differently. But then again, if it was an official I respected, I probably would have felt comfortable communicating with him on the call and we probably would have gotten it right on the field, one way or the other.

REPLY: That's my point. If it was an official whom you knew well and respected, there probably would have been much more acceptance to giving and receiving constructive criticism and honest disagreement.

evaluator
 

Unless you have an evaluator that actually knows how to observe and be constructive about the job you do, it will be up to the crew themselves to evaluate their performance. If you can't sit down as a crew and visit about the game and your crew's performance you have a problem. Put your ego in your back pocket with your flag and have a discussion about anything that may have come up during the game. If you can't participate in the postgame without getting everyone mad at you then I'm afraid the problem is with you not the rest of your crew. One call does not make an official, one game does not make an official. Put the call behind you and get ready for the next call which is the important one. If your problems are chronic with the same official then yes you do have a problem and how you handle it will depend on your personality.

bjudge, you just knocked the sails out of your argument entirely. Respect or not, once you walk on the field, you should respect your partners' ability to make calls in their zones. Otherwise, you have chaos. Perhaps he doesn't respect you either ... where would it end? Get past it, and call the game TOGETHER. If you readily admit that you would not be questioning the call if you respected him more, then you are also admitting the possibility that YOU didn't see it as well as you proclaim to have seen it. In essence, you are telling us, "I am positive I was right, and he was wrong ... except that if I trusted this guy more, maybe I didn't see it that well after all." Hypocrisy, wouldn't you agree?

Rut - he DID have a good question: Why do we weight the opinion of one official threw a flag automatically heavier than that of an official who didn't. I tried to answer that, and invite your response as well.

Sad but true!
 

It is sad but true that there are some very ambitious people out there that would love to take somebody else down if they thought it might improve their own lot. Confidence is a great asset in officiating but ego is best left off of any crew.

Agreed, life is full of hypocrisy. I am not saying that i wouldnt feel different about the call if i respected the official that made the call, what i am saying is that i think things would have been handled much differently. If I respected the official, i probably would have chalked it up as he made a mistake and moved on. But what rubbed me the wrong way in this situation is that offical had the attitude that he made a call and didnt want to discuss it. So if he is not willing to accept the fact he MAY have made a mistake or accept constructive criticism, then he has no motivation to improve. Which means, these types of calls will continue to be made.

Mike makes a good point about talking it over and getting it "right."

I was BJ on a varsity game a couple of weeks ago. I have been with this crew for three years. The white hat is over 60 and set in his ways. The U had a holding call on the offense near the LOS and the end of the run was behind it since the running back was stuffed in the backfield. The R marked off the penalty from the spot of the foul. I told the U that was wrong but he never relayed it to the R. We talked about it at half-time and realized it was administered wrong. I think every crew should have an understanding that everyone will be listened to if they have a concern and not rush through the penalty administration. I have white-hatted a lot and I think I know what I am doing out there. As a matter of fact, the R sometimes asks me what signal to use in reporting fouls.

Crews should be open to what a crew member has to add to a situation.

This is not at all like the situation that was being discussed. Where we administer a penalty from is not the same as whether or not we call a foul or not. I think people are trying to use a term that does not apply to all situations. You cannot just have all judgment calls up for debate. If you do, we will have conferences all game long. We have to allow our partners to make calls without constantly being challenged. Whether or not we administer a penalty from is not an issue of judgment. That is an issue of rules application and taking our time to apply the rules properly. That is always acceptable. And even in judgment calls we can have more information brought to the table to help us make a call. But if all we have is I saw one thing and you saw another that is never a good thing if the person that made the call feels strongly in their call. We have to do better than, “I saw something different than you did."

Peace

You keep not answering the question...

Why, in your opinion, when two officials disagree on what they saw, should we immediatly and uniformly default to the one of those two that threw a flag, and the one that saw the same action, but NOT see a foul or throw a flag, must defer to the judgement of the other... in other words, why do we assume, in such cases, that the one throwing a flag was RIGHT in his judgement call, and completely dismiss the other official's judgement call (for certainly it was judgement that caused him to NOT throw a flag)?

I've posted my opinion on why we do this, but you've not, and I'm curious to hear if your reasoning mirrors mine or supplements it.

Mind your own business
 

I would strongly agree that if it is not in your area of coverage unless your 100% sure you better stay in your own turf. Guessing is not the answer. Likewise, if you are unsure of your turf and need help with your call, I hope your crew members will "Not leave you hanging!" It takes an excellent official to be able to handle these situations and that's where experience and good judgement come into play and determine if you are an asset to your crew or........!

Trusting your partner is one of the most important things you can do when officiating your game. It is that simple. I do not throw flags personally when I think I am wrong. I do not throw flags if I am unsure. Now I had to learn to do that over some time, but if I am confident in a call, if I did not feel confident I would not throw the flag. Of course we can have a disagreement, but I was getting it right in my mind when I threw the flag or blew the whistle. I work in 3 sports and my point of view rings true in all of them. It is not my job to tell my partner he screwed up every time I disagree. If he is not doing his job, he will not be there. If an assignor has a problem with my crew or an individual on the crew, he will inform the crew chief and we will have to make a decision. If I want to nitpick a call that is what tape is for. Even on tape it can be difficult to really evaluate all judgment calls. But I can see if an official is in position to make a call. I know in a lot of basketball camps, they evaluators will not even make an issue of what judgment an official has, but deal with "things to think about and to look for." We will go round and round if every call is up for debate and discussion. You might say that will not happen, but are you sure it will not happen if we advocate a discussion on judgment calls? I have never said you can never debate a call, but to just say you have a different opinion is not a very good reason. Maybe if there was another player that knocked him into the defensive player and the contact was not just based on an attempted block, I can easily see a discussion or a debate about the call. But you do not go to a person that did not see the call. A Referee should not entertain that kind of discussion when all he is given is an opinion. The non-calling official needs to get to the calling official and talk it out. If the calling official agrees, then when they get to the Referee he can be told to pick it up. I have a rule on my crew. When there are more than one flag, I want to hear why everyone threw a flag. I do not signal until I hear for both officials. I also tell my crew to make sure when they have flags; they discuss it with each other to see if there are any differences. When they get to me, the decision needs to be made. I am not there to debate the call; I am there to make a decision. And that decision is not my decision, it is their decision. This is all pregamed and we have already decided what kind of situations requires a discussion. If this guy was on my crew, this would not be one of them.

After all is said and done, this is just an opinion. If you feel it helps your crew and the perception of the crew to debate judgment calls, which of course is your right to feel that way. I know many officials you would piss off and cause a lot of conflict if you did what you suggest. This is also not an acceptable practice where I live. There are many officials that cannot find games because they try to do this to officials that have been working a long time. If you think using a pea whistle is a better than using a Fox 40, who am I to stop you. I will say this, there is a reason some get to the top and many stay at the bottom. You can be right and be very wrong at the same time.

Peace

For what it is worth... here is what I learned along time ago.

I was working LG in a youth championship game in the late 1970's. The BJ and U were 2 officials I really admired.

The BJ and I converged on a pass play between us. I thought the defender broke up the play legally. The BJ called Defensive pass interference. I thought he was clearly wrong. At half time the U told him "great call, I turned just in time to see it" (He was turning to help with catch/trap call). Different angles create different views. I no longer question other crewmates view of what they saw.

Think about that next Sunday while watching the NFL. TV will provide 7 different views , some of which will show the foul (or the catch, or fumble, or OB etc)while others won't!

About experience: Me 30 Yrs, 27 Varsity, state championship in Giants stadium twice. Last week in youth game: 1st yr official with playing experience called no foul on crutical 4th down play. Coach on his sideline wanted DPI and called time out for conference with me as the referee. I told him "no foul. The covering official ruled it to be clean. It is a judgement call". The new guy was standing there ready to explain if I asked. I didn't until after the game, then I asked for training purposes. He was right on! The pass was low and between both players and they both dove for it, creating minor contact. No foul in his judgement. I didn't see any of the play but I'll bet he was correct.

Respect your crew mates and remember, if your both in the same spot on the field and have the same view, somebody goofed. If we all stayed together they wouldn't need 5 of us!

I think it undermines the crew's credibility to be picking up flags unless it's a situation that REALLY calls for it.

The OP's post doesn't fit this criteria, IMO.

I WH on Friday nights with the same crew every week. Reading the original scenario, I'd have no problem taking my time and having this conversation with the two officials, but I'd prefer them having that conversation before I got involved. If I got there before there was agreement, I'd ask both what they saw.

If both were adamant, I'd go with the flag. I understand that there's a decision involved in both the flag and no-flag outcomes, but the flag is a positive act -- it's saying that the covering official SAW a foul. And at that point I'd be giving the preliminary signal and ending the discussion.

Being the white hat, 95% of the time, is simply working one of the five positions in a 5-man crew. This is one of the 5% where the white hat has to decide what the crew is going to do. And this is a good discussion to be having in the pregame.

--Rich

Finally
 

I got into this thread late and have read a lot of opinions with 1 thing running through my mind the whole time: BE IN POSITION.
Thank You for finally bringing this up.

Our crew works situations like these in the following manner.

1. If 1 official flags it and another disagrees we get together. The non-flagger explains what he saw. It is then up to the flagging official whether he wants to stand by his call or wave it off. If he does, we march it off and move on.

2. If we have two flags seeing it opposite ways (ie OPI v. DPI or false start/encroachment) then they both make their case to me (WH) and I make the ruling.

Thoughts?

Crew Call
 

I really dont have any answer as far as how to handle that one situation- just a bit of philosophy that can keep it from happening again.

Everything that happens out there are crew calls. Either WE make it happen or let it happen. Make sure you are together on philosophy (preventitive v. "flag happy" etc.) This takes time- lots of discussions, etc, etc.

Everyone has a judgement call that he wishes he could take back. You will find those things happen less and less as you work together and hammer out an idea of what you believe in.