Offsetting penalties

mvp2jeter

Hypothetical Offsetting penalties scenario:

A35 runs for a 5 yard gain. B22 tackles him with the facemask—15 yards. However, on the play A was flagged for illegal formation. In NFHS and NCAA, do these penalties offset even though one is a safety concern?

Same scenario but late hit by B22, instead of facemask.

How about if A is guilty of a late hit and illegal formation? No fouls on B.

What do you use to determine what penalties get enforced in multiple/double/complicated mess fouls?

Any help would be greatly apppreciated.

Thank you.

Theisey

Originally posted by mvp2jeter
Hypothetical Offsetting penalties scenario:

A35 runs for a 5 yard gain. B22 tackles him with the facemask—15 yards. However, on the play A was flagged for illegal formation. In NFHS and NCAA, do these penalties offset even though one is a safety concern?

### both codes would offset these fouls and replay the down. Neither foul has anyt more weight than the other.

Same scenario but late hit by B22, instead of facemask.

### DB fouls do not offset live ball fouls. Enforce team-A foul first, then enforce the dead ball team-B foul.

How about if A is guilty of a late hit and illegal formation? No fouls on B.

### enforce the live ball foul AND the dead ball foul against team-A. Neither one trumps the other except in that the live ball foul is enforced first. However, team-B can decline the live ball foul and accept the dead ball foul if they so choose.

What do you use to determine what penalties get enforced in multiple/double/complicated mess fouls?

Any help would be greatly apppreciated.
Thank you.

one studies the rulebook sections (rule-2-16 and rule 10-2) until they master the basics. Key to mutiple fouls, which are more than one live ball fouls on the same team is that the opponents can pick one of them to their advantage. Be aware that non-player or USC fouls are special cases and do not turn a single foul into a double or mutiple foul.
How this helps.
#edited to getrid of all that BOLD stuff

[Edited by Theisey on Sep 19th, 2004 at 05:48 PM]

JasonTX

NCAA
The first play the penalties will offset and replay the down.

The second scenario the illegal formation penalty is 5 yards from the previous spot. After that 15 yards for the late hit and includes an automatic first down.

The third scenario would depend on the down and distance for B to make a choice. Depending on the result of the play. Suppose it was 4th and 10 and A runs for stopped for a 5 yard gain. B will most likely decline the illegal formation penalty and then get the ball after the 15 yard penatly. It's all B's choice but they can enforce the 5 yarder and then the 15 yarder and A replay the down.

JugglingReferee

Originally posted by mvp2jeter
Hypothetical Offsetting penalties scenario:

A35 runs for a 5 yard gain. B22 tackles him with the facemask—15 yards. However, on the play A was flagged for illegal formation. In NFHS and NCAA, do these penalties offset even though one is a safety concern?

Canadian Rulings:

No way these offset! Why should they? Facemask is 15 + 1D, illegal procedure is 5. Net: up to 10 yards from PLS, automatic 1st dowwwwwwwwn.

Originally posted by mvp2jeter
Same scenario but late hit by B22, instead of facemask.

Will result in the same application.

Originally posted by mvp2jeter
How about if A is guilty of a late hit and illegal formation? No fouls on B.

Back 20 from the PLS, DR; OR decline the formation foul and go back 15 from the PLS and roll the down!

Originally posted by mvp2jeter
What do you use to determine what penalties get enforced in multiple/double/complicated mess fouls?

A dual foul sitch is where each team fouled on the same play.

A double foul sitch is where one team commits more than 1 foul on the same play.

You can only accept 1 non-UR/OC/RP/NM foul per play. UR/OC/RP/NM get tacked on no matter what.

We don't have a multiple foul sitch, but we could have a dual double. (Each team with more than 1 foul on the same play. I have had it before. In fact there were 5 fouls on the play, and about 7 hankies. Which is proof that we should carry two hankies.)

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Sep 19th, 2004 at 06:06 AM]

ljudge

mvp2jeter, Click this link. Please don't be offended by the article name...no "shot" at you. It's an excellent article and helpful to (I'm sure) the most veteran officials. It was written by a member of this forum "Bob M" and I use it as a primer in preparation for the season.

Happy reading...

http://www.footballrefs.com/show_article.php?id=3

Forksref

In order to offset, you need to have 2 live-ball fouls.

ljudge

To be clear here....OTHER than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike.

The Roamin' Umpire

Originally posted by mvp2jeter
What do you use to determine what penalties get enforced in multiple/double/complicated mess fouls?

The obvious answer is get in the book, especially Rule 10 of the NFHS code, which deals with penalty enforcement.

However, I do have a set of guidelines that summarize the NFHS version of things (other rule codes are similar, but not perfect matches):

Enforce all dead-ball fouls, in order.
No more than one live-ball penalty per team per down. [NFHS term: multiple foul]
Barring a change of possession, live-ball fouls by both teams offset & replay, regardless of the yardage, etc. involved. [NFHS term: double foul]
On change(s) of possession, the team with ball has the option to keep it if they had "clean hands*" when they got the ball. (*counting PSK)
If the defense fouls on a score, the penalty may be marked off on the try/kickoff.
Eject even if the penalty for the ejectable foul is declined.

More rules could easily be added, but this is my core set. (And the last one isn't really a "core" rule, but I consider it key from a game-control standpoint.)