PSK in English

[OverAndBack]

We should have a contest to see who can explain PSK in the fewest words and have it make sense.

Heck, I'd just be happy if someone would explain it to me in English, because there are far too many words and commas in the explanations I've seen. I'm totally confused.

[JRutledge]

1. PSK requirements start at the snap.

2. The foul must be committed by R.

3. The foul must take place beyond the expanded neutral zone (2 yards deep in the defense).

4. R must be in possession of the ball at the end of the play.

5. The window closes when the kick ends.

6. You enforce the penalty where it hurts R the most, either the end of the kick or where the ball is downed, which ever will hurt them the most (all but one principle).

That is the basics. The rule was created because K is giving up the ball. Before this rule was put in place, K would get a "cheap" first down on these types of penalties. The PSK enforcement was created so that R would keep the ball and get penalized

Peace

[Bob Mc]

That is the basics

And you have stated them well. For me keeping those basics in mind (or even repeating them to myself prior to a punt) keeps it in perspective and makes it a lot easier when or if something happens.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally posted by JRutledge

6. You enforce the penalty where it hurts R the most, either the end of the kick or where the ball is downed, which ever will hurt them the most (all but one principle).

I disagree about the "where the ball is downed" part. The end of the kick is the basic spot for a PSK foul. If R's foul is behind that, then enforce from the spot of the foul.

If R was tackled way behind that, K might just decline.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by AndrewMcCarthy
I disagree about the "where the ball is downed" part. The end of the kick is the basic spot for a PSK foul. If R's foul is behind that, then enforce from the spot of the foul.

If R was tackled way behind that, K might just decline.

I realize that I did not make it clear about the penalty enforcement. That is also why I said the all but one principle applies. But if R gets tacked behind the enforcement or basic spot, they penalty is still enforced from the end of the run (or where the ball is downed) if that spot is behind the basic spot. K would not want to decline that penalty, they would usually want to punish them more.

Peace

[OverAndBack]

See, you've gone and put too many words into it again.

We have "end of kick," "end of run," and "end of down."

Please define those for me.

End of kick = where R gains possession or where R touches?
End of run = ostensibly the end of the play, but if R then fumbles, that's the end of his run, correct, not the end of the play?
End of down = when you blow that there Fox-40 and wave your arms and award a new series to somebody.

Right?

Why is this game so freaking complicated?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by OverAndBack


End of kick = where R gains possession or where R touches?

You need to look in definitions and see when a kick ends. I do not have my rulebook right in front of me, but a kick ends when the ball is possessed by R or goes out of bounds before possession.

Originally posted by OverAndBack
End of run = ostensibly the end of the play, but if R then fumbles, that's the end of his run, correct, not the end of the play?

Again, look in the definitions on what this is. For enforcement purposes, you need to see what the end of the run or related run means. You either have a run or a loose ball play for enforcement purposes. So if the end of the run is behind the spot of the foul, you enforce the foul from the end of the run.

Originally posted by OverAndBack
End of down = when you blow that there Fox-40 and wave your arms and award a new series to somebody.

Who has the ball at the end of the down? If R has possession of the ball, you can have PSK. If for some reason K has the ball, then you do not have PSK.

Originally posted by OverAndBack
Right?

Why is this game so freaking complicated?

I think it is complicated to many newer officials is because you need to understand these basic definitions first. Just like I told you guys in our Football meetings that Rule 2 is the most important rule in the rulebook. You do what a lot of younger officials do not do; you do not go back to Rule 2 to understand what those terms are. Everything in the rulebook goes back to Rule 2 or Definitions (applies to all sports I work). If one of those situations does not apply, you cannot have PSK. And this is not just a problem for younger officials, veterans over think this rule too. We just tend to nitpick situations that are possible and try to change the spirit of the rules.


Peace

[SoGARef]

I think I can beat Rut on the shortest English version of the PSK foul enforcement.

For a post-scrimmage kick enforcement to apply all of the following conditions must be met.

1) The foul is by R beyond the expanded neutral zone;

2) The foul takes place during the interval between the snap and the end of a scrimmage kick (not a try) that crosses the expanded neutral zone; and,

3) The ball belongs to R when the down ends.

To answer your other question OAB, the end of a kick is when a player catches or recovers a ball, or the ball becomes dead by rule, such as, going out of bounds. The end of a run is where the ball becomes dead in the runner's possession, or where the runner loses possession if his run is followed by a loose ball, or the spot of the catch when the momentum rule is in effect. The end of the down is when the ball next becomes dead. It is rarely when you blow you whistle. If a down ends in its natural sequence of events it is over before you blow your whistle.

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by SoGARef
I think I can beat Rut on the shortest English version of the PSK foul enforcement.

Challenging Rutledge to an English competition! You're a real risk taker, aren't you?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Bob Lyle

Challenging Rutledge to an English competition! You're a real risk taker, aren't you?

Bob, GO **** YOURSELF!!!!

Peace

[SJoldguy]

More words for you OVER AND BACK1

there is an exception to PSK. If the play results in a successful Field goal, it is not a PSK option. That means you have a foul by R (like B) on a loose ball play and will be enforced from the previous spot. K can take the points off the board and continue their drive or (have the penalty measured on the suceeding spot). If that last option is wrong I am sure I will be corrected by someone.

[OverAndBack]

Okay, I'm getting closer. Tell me how close I am.

Let's ignore a missed field goal for a moment (besides a punt, that's the only other kind of of scrimmage kick that isn't a try or a successful field goal, right?). So this is an oversimplification, but, being a new official who can't read, this would be a helpful start for me:

"On a punt, if R fouls downfield between the time of the snap and end of the kick, you enforce the foul from the basic spot (usually the end of the kick) unless the foul occured behind the basic spot, when you use the 'all but one' principle and enforce from the spot of the foul."

That's assuming R ends up with the ball. But if I'm close on that, it should cover the vast majority of the situations where you're likely to have PSK enforcement, n'est-ce pas?

[SeanWest]

A missed field goal is just another scrimmage kick - like a punt - so there's no special case to consider there - regular PSK rules apply (you can't have PSK on a good field goal because R never gains possession).

[Edited by SeanWest on Sep 2nd, 2004 at 11:03 PM]

[SoGARef]

Originally posted by OverAndBack
Okay, I'm getting closer. Tell me how close I am.

Let's ignore a missed field goal for a moment (besides a punt, that's the only other kind of of scrimmage kick that isn't a try or a successful field goal, right?). So this is an oversimplification, but, being a new official who can't read, this would be a helpful start for me:

"On a punt, if R fouls downfield between the time of the snap and end of the kick, you enforce the foul from the basic spot (usually the end of the kick) unless the foul occured behind the basic spot, when you use the 'all but one' principle and enforce from the spot of the foul."

That's assuming R ends up with the ball. But if I'm close on that, it should cover the vast majority of the situations where you're likely to have PSK enforcement, n'est-ce pas?

The first thing you need to do is to get the "all but one" principle out of your head on this play. The "all but one" principle applies only to fouls committed by the offense that are behind the basic spot.

With PSK the spot is the spot where the kick ends. (That's why we have to bean bag it). Fouls by R behind the post-scrimmage spot are spot fouls. In your example the end of the kick is the post-scrimmage spot and if the foul is behind this spot then the foul will be a spot foul enforced from the spot of the foul. Notice that "all but one" does not even come into play. Why? Because team designation remains the same from the beginning of a down and until the down is ended. K is equivalent to A (offense) and remains so until the scrimmage kick down has ended. Inversely, R is equivalent to B (defense) and remains so until the down has ended. "All but one" applies only to fouls by K or A.

[SJoldguy]

SOGAref is not correct. The team in possession of a live ball is offense and subject to the all but one principle. 2 examples are B during a return of an intercertion and R during the return of a punt. The designations of A,B,K,and R don't change but the designations of offense and defense do change.