PSK in English - Page 2

SoGARef · #16 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 07:25am

My wording wasn't exactly how I should have worded it. Wasn't thinking clearly at such an hour. Good thing we play games a little earlier in the day.

Here is what I meant to say. When the foul is by the team not in possession, the penalty is enforced from the basic spot; when the foul is by the team in possession and occurs beyond the basic spot, the penalty is enforced from the basic spot; and when the foul is by the team in possession and occurs behind the basic spot, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul. That pretty much encompasses the all but one enforcement.

OverAndBack · #17 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 07:51am

My man JRutledge used the phrase "all but one" in the second post in this thread, that's why I used it.

See why this is confusing for the new guys?

SoGARef · #18 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 08:05am

There is often much mystery surrounding the all-but-one principle, but in fact it is really quite simple. Forget about the words "offense" and "defense". Notice SJoldguy, this is where I get my ducks back in a row! Instead, think of it this way, it is either a foul by the team in possession or the team not in possession and it occurs either behind or beyond the basic spot for that play. Two teams and two possible locations equal four categories of fouls.

If the foul is by the team "not in possession", whether behind or beyond the basic spot, or by the team "in possession beyond the basic spot", the penalty is enforced from the basic spot. This is the "all" in the name: three classifications of fouls have their penalties enforced from the basic spot. The fourth is the remaining one--by the team in possession behind the basic spot. This is the "one," and the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

I'll admit it took me years to finally break it down to this simple understanding, but it hasn't failed me since.

Rich · #19 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 08:18am

Quote:

Originally posted by SoGARef

Quote:

Originally posted by OverAndBack
Okay, I'm getting closer. Tell me how close I am.

Let's ignore a missed field goal for a moment (besides a punt, that's the only other kind of of scrimmage kick that isn't a try or a successful field goal, right?). So this is an oversimplification, but, being a new official who can't read, this would be a helpful start for me:

"On a punt, if R fouls downfield between the time of the snap and end of the kick, you enforce the foul from the basic spot (usually the end of the kick) unless the foul occured behind the basic spot, when you use the 'all but one' principle and enforce from the spot of the foul."

That's assuming R ends up with the ball. But if I'm close on that, it should cover the vast majority of the situations where you're likely to have PSK enforcement, n'est-ce pas?

The first thing you need to do is to get the "all but one" principle out of your head on this play. The "all but one" principle applies only to fouls committed by the offense that are behind the basic spot.

With PSK the spot is the spot where the kick ends. (That's why we have to bean bag it). Fouls by R behind the post-scrimmage spot are spot fouls. In your example the end of the kick is the post-scrimmage spot and if the foul is behind this spot then the foul will be a spot foul enforced from the spot of the foul. Notice that "all but one" does not even come into play. Why? Because team designation remains the same from the beginning of a down and until the down is ended. K is equivalent to A (offense) and remains so until the scrimmage kick down has ended. Inversely, R is equivalent to B (defense) and remains so until the down has ended. "All but one" applies only to fouls by K or A.

The bag marks the basic spot, subject to the all-but-one principle.

Definitions, definitions, definitions.

Working a FR/JV DH last night -- we had 2 fouls on kick returns where the foul was beyond the end of the run. Knowing the definitions is important -- basic spot is the end of the run and because the foul was not behind the basic spot we marched off the fouls from the end of the run.

Once the definitions are solidly in your head, you'll start talking in those terms and thinking in those terms and you won't even realize it.

(1) Is the foul (enforced as a dead ball or live ball?
(2) Is the play a loose ball play, running play, or PSK?
(3) Where is the basic spot?
(4) Was the foul behind the basic spot?

SoGARef · #20 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 08:29am

Couldn't agree with you more, Rich!

Rich · #21 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 10:03am

Quote:

Originally posted by SoGARef
There is often much mystery surrounding the all-but-one principle, but in fact it is really quite simple. Forget about the words "offense" and "defense". Notice SJoldguy, this is where I get my ducks back in a row! Instead, think of it this way, it is either a foul by the team in possession or the team not in possession and it occurs either behind or beyond the basic spot for that play. Two teams and two possible locations equal four categories of fouls.

If the foul is by the team "not in possession", whether behind or beyond the basic spot, or by the team "in possession beyond the basic spot", the penalty is enforced from the basic spot. This is the "all" in the name: three classifications of fouls have their penalties enforced from the basic spot. The fourth is the remaining one--by the team in possession behind the basic spot. This is the "one," and the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

I'll admit it took me years to finally break it down to this simple understanding, but it hasn't failed me since.

It's even simpler than this when you consider WHY we have all-but-one enforcement. When a foul is committed by a team in possession, we give all the yardage earned up to the foul, but no more. I'll throw in two simple plays to illustrate:

PLAY: A ball on A's 35. A56 holds B92 at the 36 yard line on a run that ends at A's 40.

Result: Penalize from the 36 since it is behind the basic spot (the end of the run).

Think about why we penalize from there -- if we stepped off 10 from the 40 (the end of the run) we are giving four yards extra that may have been gained BECAUSE of the foul.

PLAY: A ball on A's 35. A56 holds B92 at the 45 yard line on a run that ends at A's 40.

Result: Mark the foul from the end of the run, the basic spot.

We don't penalize from the spot of the foul because the offense hasn't earned those yards.

--Rich

Bob M. · #22 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 10:25am

OverAndBack,

Send me an email ([email protected]) and I'll send you some materials that might help you understand enforcement and PSK.

SoGARef · #23 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 10:35am

Do you think we have added to his confusion Bob?

Bob M. · #24 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 11:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by SoGARef
Do you think we have added to his confusion Bob?

REPLY: Absolutely not! I just thought that OAB is probably feeling like he's drinking from a firehose and was offering something that he can sit down and read leisurely. But no, you guys were right on the money!

OverAndBack · #25 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 11:36am

I am still confused, for what it's worth.

I just wish rules were written in English.

We haven't hit on an English definition where it clicks in my mind yet.

All-but-one took a couple of days, but then it clicked in my mind. PSK I haven't figured out yet. But thanks for trying.

Rich · #26 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 11:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by OverAndBack
I am still confused, for what it's worth.

I just wish rules were written in English.

We haven't hit on an English definition where it clicks in my mind yet.

All-but-one took a couple of days, but then it clicked in my mind. PSK I haven't figured out yet. But thanks for trying.

PSK is based on the theory that the kicking team has given up its possession via a scrimmage kick.

If the foul is beyond the expanded neutral zone and R retains possession of the ball at the end of the down, why should K get to keep the ball? They, essentially have already given it up.

--Rich

OverAndBack · #27 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 11:47am

I'm not unclear on that. Of course they've given it up.

What I'm unclear about is the enforcement spot.

Let me try this again, see if I'm getting closer:

"On a punt or missed field goal attempt, if R fouls downfield between the time of the snap and end of the kick, you enforce the foul from the end of the kick unless the foul occured behind that spot, when you enforce from the spot of the foul."

BTW, Rule 2 in my rule book doesn't offer a definition that I can see for "end of kick" or "end of run."

SeanWest · #28 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 12:34pm

2-23-2: "A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession."

i.e. When someone catches it, when it hits the ground and someone picks it up, when no ones got it and it goes out of bounds.

2-40-9: "The spot where a run ends is where the runner loses player possession or where the ball becomes dead in his possession."

i.e. Where he fumbles the ball or where he is tackled.

-SW---

Rich · #29 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 01:08pm

Once you know where the end of the kick is and that it IS a PSK situation, enforcement is pretty easy.

The beanbag marks the basic spot. Penalty behind that, enforce from the flag. Otherwise, enforce from the beanbag.

Would you like to cover some plays to help you further?

--Rich

OverAndBack · #30 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 01:10pm

It's almost there. Thanks, Sean. I was looking under "E" for "End" in the rules!

Sure, some plays will be helpful. I'm getting closer.