Pass Interference on an Illegal Forward Pass

[OverAndBack]

We had a spirited debate about this in our association meeting tonight.

Can you have pass interference on an illegal forward pass?

The example that people kept coming up with was an intentionally-grounded pass, but with what would normally be pass interference on the other side of the field. We seemed to reach a consensus that if the contact on the other side of the field didn't have an effect on the play, no call. If one of the wings thought it might have made it so the receiver couldn't get into the area of the pass and that's why there was no receiver in the area, then it would be called (the referee would need help on this, as he'd be staying with the passer after the pass).

If I'm missing anything on that, JRut will jump in, he was in the meeting.

But my question (which I didn't ask because we were getting bogged down) was what about another illegal forward pass?

Scenario:

First and 10 from B's 45 yard line. A1 drops back and rolls right. He runs just pass the line of scrimmage and lets fly downfield. As the ball is in the air, B2 interferes with A2 and the pass is incomplete.

Does the illegal forward pass negate the interference?

Or is it offsetting fouls?

Just thought I'd throw it out to everybody to see what the opinions are.

[Theisey]

Just the facts, can't have DPI on illegal forward passes.
(sorry.. hit the wrong button)

Rules say that pass interference restrictions apply beyond the NZ and only if the legal forward pass, etc etc.

The point is legal forward passes.

[Edited by Theisey on Aug 17th, 2004 at 07:34 AM]

[mikesears]

You can only have PI on a LEGAL forward pass.
7-5-7: Pass interference restrictions only apply beyond the neutral zone and only if the legal forward pass, untouched by B in or behind the neutral zone, crosses the neutral zone.

I would say that if PI were the reason that an eligible player was not in the area, then call PI. However, if a passer is beyond the neutral zone when the pass is thrown, there cannot be PI.

[JRutledge]

So you say that you cannot have a DPI on an illegal forward pass. But what if that determination is based on why the pass might initially is called intentional grounding in the first place?

For example, if the QB threw the ball to a spot and his receiver is held up because he was being mugged on a crossing route. The Referee just sees the ball thrown to an empty spot and throws the flag. The back judge sees the receiver being held while the ball is in the air. Are we going to pick up one of those flags? I understand that technically this would be an illegal forward pass, but why do we possibly have an illegal forward pass? We probably have it because the defense committed an illegal act as well. This is not the same in my mind as a pass beyond the LOS.

Peace

[OverAndBack]

Exactly, Jeff.

I was just presenting a scenario with a different kind of illegal forward pass. I assume you'd pick up the flag in the intentional grounding situation, and you'd just wave off the DPI in the "over the line" situation.

I thought of the "over the line" situation because that's one that you know would bring out the boo-birds (in the stands and on the sideline) because I doubt very seriously that fans or coaches are well versed in that rule.

But now I am, so thanks!

[Theisey]

If the QB threw to a spot while his receiver was being "mugged" trying to get that spot but never came close to reaching that spot. how can this be justified as being an illegal forward pass? This is DPI.
The only way one could justify a grounding call was if the QB was under some heavy pressure and was tossing it downfield to save loss of yardage.
The BJs flag would be for holding, but not DPI.

[OverAndBack]

I can see that, but the scenario was that the referee, who's watching the quarterback, sees the ball thrown to an unoccupied area.

The wing on that side might concur. But it's possible that neither of them saw what someone on the other side saw, which was the receiver being held up (this might be on a timing route).

In that case, while the initial call from the referee (who's not watching the other side) might be intentional grounding, that flag could be picked up if the official on the other wing comes in and says "well it was thrown to an unoccupied area because the defensive back on my side was holding the receiver."

I doubt you'll see that, but that was the scenario. But the basic idea is that you can't have pass interference on an illegal forward pass, and I'm okay with that.

[cmathews]

If the reason the pass is "illegal" is do to the receiver being mugged, then I would pick up the Intentional Grounding flag and go with the DPI...

[Bob M.]

REPLY: If the R threw the flag seeing no eligible receiver in the area, someone (BJ, in this case) needs to set him straight on why there was no receiver there. Then, the R waves off his IFP, and enforces the defensive holding or DPI, whichever it was.